CE: Truro Cathedral Wed, Feb 3rd 2021 [A]

[Miles Coverdale]

It's worth emphasising that the modern Great/Short categorisation of Tudor services is a modern fiction. As has been pointed out (by Richard Turbet) there are only two Great Services that have any claim to having been called such in their day: Byrd's and Tomkins's: Tomkins was a pupil of Byrd, of course.

In his article 'Greatness thrust upon 'em: Services by Byrd and others reconsidered' Turbet does also include Edmund Hooper's Long or Full Service, which is labelled 'Great' in a few of its Peterhouse sources, which originated in Durham; the great majority of sources for Byrd's Great Service are Durham or Peterhouse manuscripts. Only one source describes Tomkins' Third Service as 'Great' and that may be for reasons other than its length, which is about two-thirds that of the Byrd. As Turbet footnotes in his article, one of the culprits for naming the Parsons as 'Great' may be a CD by Worcester Cathedral Choir. In Worcester's defence, the CD does call it the 'First or Great Service'; a more recent recording calls it the 'First Great Service', as if there was more than one.

One curious aspect of the Creed of the First Service, which can raise an eyebrow if you ever get to sing it, is that Parsons sets the text 'crucified also for us under Ponce Pilate'. This is found in the 1549 Book of Common Prayer, but in the service for Confirmation, not the Communion Service, where the more usual 'Pontius' is printed. I wonder if Parsons was mis-remembering the 1549 BCP when he wrote his Creed.

[Vox Humana]

Thank you heartily, Master Coverdale. It's a long while since I read Richard Turbet's article and my memory was hazy: I had quite forgotten about the Hooper. As you will know, there was a close relationship between the Durham and Peterhouse sources which might reduce their witness value a bit (but this is quite beyond my pay grade). Parsons did indeed write more than one service of so-called 'great' dimensions—which to him would have been simply 'normal' dimensions. The Second Service, which is retrievable here, seems to me of much the same dimensions as his first. There's a recording of the Te Deum which whets my appetite for the rest.

How interesting that the 1549 prayer book is inconsistent in its translation of sub Pontio Pilato. A sign of haste? I recall that 'Ponce Pilate' occurs in several of the anonymous communion services in the Wanley Partbooks, parts of which might well pre-date the 1549 prayer book. I wonder whether 'Ponce Pilate' was normal currency in the vernacular at the time. Pontius was hardly an English name, so priests would surely have Anglicised it somehow.

[Dafydd y G.W.]

There are lots of inconsistencies in the 1549 book, not all of which were tidied up in later editions. These are indeed usually taken as signs that Cranmer was working at speed, tho’ it has to be said that total consistency would be unusual at that date (it is more of a modern thing).

The Englished form “Ponce Pilate” probably was normal usage, which is no doubt why it occurs in the W. Partbooks, and no doubt why Parsons accidentally used it in his setting. The oddity is in fact the version we are familiar with, half Latin and half English. All-Latin would make more sense, or all-English. But, as I’ve said, logical consistency wasn’t something people were so bothered about in those days ....

[Vox Humana]

... which is no doubt why it occurs in the W. Partbooks, and no doubt why Parsons accidentally used it in his setting. ....

It wouldn't have been accidental. It seems that you can't date settings by their text and that composers selected whatever version of the text they preferred. Composers did not feel bound to be consistent.

[cat]

The Wackypedia entry on Parsons is a bit dodgy. I keep thinking I should rewrite it, but I don't have the time. For example, we know from the Chapel Royal cheque books that he drowned at Newark, but there is no mention of the River Trent and to assume that he drowned in the river perhaps risks creating an impression that may be not quite on the nail. The thing is, in the sixteenth century the whole area was prone to flooding from the Trent and it seems to have been notorious for claiming lives. In 1638 Richard Braithwaite's 'Drunken Barnaby' visited the town:

Veni New-wark, ubi vivos
Sperans mersos esse rivis,
Irrui cellam subamoenam,
Generosis vinis plenam.
Donec Lictor intrans cellam,
Me conduxit at flagellum.

which, in an edition of 1762, was translated as:

Thence to New-wark, flood-surrounded –
Where I hoping most were drowned;
Hand to hand I straitways shored
To a Cellar richly stored:
Till suspected for a Pick-lock,
Th’Beadle led me to the Whip-stock.

Who knows exactly where Parsons drowned? It may not have been in the river itself.

An interesting question, although the fact that he appears not to have been buried surely points to him being swiftly carried away by the waters (which would only have headed up the Trent).

[Dafydd y G.W.]

It wouldn't have been accidental. It seems that you can't date settings by their text and that composers selected whatever version of the text they preferred. Composers did not feel bound to be consistent.

Agreed on consistency. To-the-letter accuracy is a modern bugbear. Witness the different printings of the 1549 book itself. Of two printings easily available on line one has Poncius and the other has Poncious. Parsons may have chosen Ponce deliberately for his own musical reasons, but it could also be an accident. Nor is it beyond the bounds of possiblity that one (or more) printings of the book (there were twelve apparently) actually had the form Ponce ....

[Vox Humana]

An interesting question, although the fact that he appears not to have been buried surely points to him being swiftly carried away by the waters (which would only have headed up the Trent).

But we don't know that he wasn't buried, do we? I think that, for Newark, we have burial records only from 1811 onwards and baptisms and marriages only from 1599. I would be pleased to be proved wrong about that.

[ardcarp]

The Wackypedia entry on Parsons is a bit dodgy. I keep thinking I should rewrite it, but I don't have the time. For example, we know from the Chapel Royal cheque books that he drowned at Newark, but there is no mention of the River Trent and to assume that he drowned in the river

Yes, Wiki is quick and easy but not always scholarly. I think you should rewrite/edit it, Vox!

I have Rimbault's 'Cheque Book' in front of me now. It does say 'upon Trent'...maybe a hint?

1569 Robt. Parsons was drowned at Newwark upon Trent the 25th of Januarie, and Wm. Bird, sworne gentleman in his place at the first [?] the 22nd of Februarie followinge, A° 14° ,[ from ] Lincolne.

Maybe some scholar (Vox? Miles?) can explain exactly what the little ° symbol is doing after A and 14....and indeed what A and 14 mean? I'm sure it says so somewhere in Rimbault's book, but I seem to have missed it.

[Vox Humana]

Yes, Wiki is quick and easy but not always scholarly. I think you should rewrite/edit it, Vox!

I have Rimbault's 'Cheque Book' in front of me now. It does say 'upon Trent'...maybe a hint?

1569 Robt. Parsons was drowned at Newwark upon Trent the 25th of Januarie, and Wm. Bird, sworne gentleman in his place at the first [?] the 22nd of Februarie followinge, A° 14° ,[ from ] Lincolne.

Maybe some scholar (Vox? Miles?) can explain exactly what the little ° symbol is doing after A and 14....and indeed what A and 14 mean? I'm sure it says so somewhere in Rimbault's book, but I seem to have missed it.

The full name of the town was Newark upon Trent. A° is simply short for 'Anno' and 14° is short for 'quatuordecimo'. A° 14° therefore means the fourteenth year of Elizabeth's reign, viz. 17 Nov 1571—16 Nov 1572. So Parsons drowned on 25 Jan 1572 and Byrd replaced him the following month.

[DracoM]

Thx all for fascinating scholarship and background

[Simon Biazeck]

I recall singing Parson's 'First Service' many years ago from a typically superb edition by Professor John O'Donnell. I must admit that it didn't make much of an impression on me. I agree with comments above about its limited harmonic orbit. It will be interesting to hear it again after so long!

SBz.

[mopsus]

I recall singing Parson's 'First Service' many years ago in a typically superb edition by Professor John O'Donnell. I must admit that it didn't make much of an impression on me. I agree with comments above about its limited harmonic orbit. It will be interesting to hear it again after so long!

SBz.

I sang it with a visiting choir in Peterborough Cathedral a few years ago, from a Church Music Society edition edited by Magnus Williamson (whom I met on a College choir tour some years previously). I can't say it made much impression on me, and Magnus comments drily that the service 'occasionally suggests a disparity between stylistic ambition and compositional craft .... [cites example]... Such infelicities have generally been left uncorrected'.

[DracoM]

Reminder: tomorrow [Wed] @ 3.30p.m.

[DracoM]

bump

[Finzi4ever]

glorious psalm singing! (as far as I've got so far) - not long till Parsons...