Advent Carols in the Chapel of St John’s College, Cambridge 29th Nov 2020 [L]

[ardcarp]

Anyway, back to the music... One of the anthems for the service ‘O virgo virginum’ is composed by 12 year old Harry L’Estrange (son of singer / composer Jo Forbes L’Estrange and composer Alex L’Estrange); he is a chorister at St John’s.

Yes, he had the same piece sung in this year's Epiphany service.....

https://www.sjcchoir.co.uk/listen/webcasts/epiphany-carol-service-2020?autoplay=true

[Miles Coverdale]

Without wishing to dampen anyone's enthusiasm, I think you might have misinterpreted the announcement, which I also received. The Hereford webcast was recorded a few days ago, but I'm sure none the worse for that.

https://www.herefordcathedral.org/news/advent-carol-sequence

[Quilisma]

It genuinely saddens me that some people are so vehemently outraged by the continuation of liturgy even at times when members of the public are prohibited from attending in person. I can assure you that the fact that we are currently not permitted to allow physical congregations from outside into our services has been a source of immense grief, anguish and frustration for ALL of us involved in liturgy and music in cathedrals and equivalent choral foundations. Evidently college chapels are a slightly different case, because to the extent that colleges are closed residential communities and can be self-contained it may be possible for the chapels to continue to be open to members of that particular self-contained community only, but even then the conditions are very restrictive. For the rest of us, our hands are tied, and nobody is to blame: only the virus. But THE OPUS DEI MUST AND WILL CONTINUE, no matter what. This was always the case: in any given cathedral and equivalent choral foundation, the liturgy goes ahead regardless of whether there are a thousand people physically present in the congregation, or a hundred, or ten, or one, or indeed none. The cloud of witnesses is, of course, without limit. To suggest that liturgies without a physical congregation are illegitimate, inauthentic, a sham and "not worship" is surely to reject the validity of the monastic model of Opus Dei and of the "indirect vicarious participation" principle on which choral liturgy relies. People have every right to boycott something if they wish, of course, but it does NOT mean their reasons for wishing to do so are necessarily beyond doubt. Up the road in Ely it has been wonderful during this second lockdown not to be compelled to abandon the Opus Dei completely once again, and through being required to live-stream all of our choral liturgies it has at least been possible for many, many more people to be able to "attend" them remotely, virtually, than it ever was when one could only ever attend physically, in person. I make no assertion as to whether or not our liturgies throughout this period have been any less legitimate or authentic as acts of worship (judge for yourself via our YouTube channel if you must), but I can guarantee that nothing whatsoever has changed in the way in which we in the choir approach each liturgy. The same is definitely true of St John's. Their Advent Carol Service is still emphatically a service, NOT a concert: arguably, perhaps even more so this year, although of course the usual circumstances, with a packed physical congregation, would be greatly preferable. I urge people to swallow their dismay about the things which are "just not the same", and take it on its own terms, as an exquisite liturgy and act of worship within the current context. I am massively looking forward to listening, although of course I shall have to listen after the event, because we have our own Advent Procession to do tomorrow, which itself will be very different from usual in ways which nobody could have foreseen. Normally our entire building would be full of worshippers on this occasion; tomorrow it will be just the clergy and the musicians, but thanks to cameras and microphones anyone can at least "attend" remotely, virtually, rather than just those who could be in that particular place at that particular time. Evidently nobody would dream of suggesting that it's a good thing in normal circumstances not to let members of the public in to be part of physical congregations for choral liturgies. That is not the issue here at all.

[ardcarp]

One only has to think of, for instance, a Benedictine community to realise that the Opus Dei is often unattended by a congregation. Matins, Lauds and Prime are observed by often weary brothers tottering into the church and singing the prescribed plainsong (occasionally rather flat!) and witnessed by no living soul.

[Quilisma]

One only has to think of, for instance, a Benedictine community to realise that the Opus Dei is often unattended by a congregation. Matins, Lauds and Prime are observed by often weary brothers tottering into the church and singing the prescribed plainsong (occasionally rather flat!) and witnessed by no living soul.

Absolutely right! Many of our cathedrals were formerly Benedictine foundations, of course, and we are mindful of that to this day. For example, here we were this evening https://youtu.be/su9B9seDYwA, rather as our tonsured forebears might have been until 1539; and here we were on Thursday plus choristers https://youtu.be/V4KvwmXacXM (although owing to a camera malfunction the live picture didn't work on that occasion). I'm not sure to what extent liturgies like this could be described as "fake" and "not genuine worship", but that is certainly not how it seems to us.

[Andrew Butler]

I can quite see ALL the points being raised here. It is just my personal view to which I am entitled. I would argue however that monastic services are different in that the community is the congregation and the general public cannot usually attend.

The main reason I won’t listen to this or anything broadcast without a congregation is that I can’t bear the thought of the great congregational hymns being (beautifully) sung by the choir with subdued organ, when they should provide a different dynamic. If the hymns had been omitted and / or replaced by antiphonal or choir items, I just might have listened

[cat]

If the hymns had been omitted and / or replaced by antiphonal or choir items, I just might have listened

I don't know what John's will do, but I noticed this in the BBC summary for this year's 9LC at King's: "With Covid restrictions and the need for social distancing within the choir, a number of new arrangements have been made which capitalise on the rare opportunity to hear these ever popular hymns in versions for choir only."

You might therefore not have to listen to the usual congregational hymns without a congregation.

[Nick Armstrong]

Service booklet can be found here:

https://issuu.com/st-johns-college-c...vice_2020/1?ff

[mw963]

If the hymns had been omitted and / or replaced by antiphonal or choir items, I just might have listened

I would be more than happy to download the service for you, edit out the hymns, and then put the abridged version up on - say - Dropbox, so that you can listen to it without the bits that you can't bear to listen to.

[gurnemanz]

I don't know what John's will do, but I noticed this in the BBC summary for this year's 9LC at King's: "With Covid restrictions and the need for social distancing within the choir, a number of new arrangements have been made which capitalise on the rare opportunity to hear these ever popular hymns in versions for choir only."

You might therefore not have to listen to the usual congregational hymns without a congregation.

Thanks for this information. I would have thought that most people, like me, will be happy to listen to the music untroubled by the liturgical and and ecclesiastical niceties discussed above.

[oddoneout]

Thanks for this information. I would have thought that most people, like me, will be happy to listen to the music untroubled by the liturgical and and ecclesiastical niceties discussed above.

This I think is one of the joys of radio(or equivalent) broadcasts of such celebrations - each listener can take from it what he or she wants/needs. There will be those who feel as AB does about the constraints that Covid has imposed, but there will also be those who would in normal years attend in person for whom that is not possible this year whether due to personal circumstances or Covid restrictions.For them the option of an alternative, even if very different in some respects, will be welcomed.

[Andrew Butler]

As I said, everyone is entitled to their views, as I am to mine. I hope everyone enjoys listening. I have seen my entire livelihood demolished by the reactions to COVID. My church furloughed me for as long as it could then dispensed with my services. I am not going to attempt to wrest some "normality" out of this wretched situation. Thanks for the offer of an edited version, but i don't "do" anything other than "live" worship.

[Andrew Butler]

ADMIN - Please remove me from this forum

[mw963]

No problem, the offer was there. Whilst I don't find myself in the same boat as you on the matter of the congregational presence at a service, I feel just as strongly about another matter, namely the appalling vandalism of Radio 3 twenty-eight years ago by the wretched WRETCHED Kenyon. So in a similar way to you and your attitude to these choral broadcasts, I have not listened to the network since, apart for Choral Evensong. There may be the odd good thing on Radio 3 that I deprive myself of, but I am so alienated by the amateur matey presentation, the narrowing of the variety of music at the expense of the composers I came to love under the old regime, the lack of BBC Studio recorded sessions, and the generally down-market infantile feel of the network, that I would simply rather do without. There is plenty of better classical music radio on satellite from Europe to satisfy me.

So you are not alone, although I'm sure that there are those who would simply say to us both something along the lines of noses, spite and faces! And we should all remember that this very forum was set up originally as a protest against a further dumbing down of Radio 3, some years after the original destruction wrought by Kenyon.

We should all take comfort from the fact that a vaccine is not far away now, and whilst it won't cure the ills I perceive in Radio 3, it should mean you get your congregations back in a few months!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Without adding fuel to the ‘controversy’ I think the standard of congregational singing at College Choral Evensong tends to be quite high because it’s often made up of bemused mute tourists and former choral scholars trying to recapture past glories ...