CE Chichester Cathedral Wed 18th Nov 2020 [L]

[DracoM]

In adding the words "recently" you are perhaps right, but some of us have detected a long term shift in the ratio - put simply - of cathedral-to-other-places broadcasts, at the increasing expense of the cathedrals. Coupled with the fact that it's inevitable that girls choirs will (and should!) be given their fair share of broadcasts, it's becoming something of a rarity to have boys and a cathedral.

I started a thread on this some years back, it's entitled something like "Why are there so few cathedral broadcasts?".

Yes, I am delighted that more and more ensembles are being invited to take on CE responsibilities, BUT there is no doubt that it is at the expense of the boy-led choir. If you then take into account what certain clerics have done at Westminster / Sheffield. and the likely consequences of that, maybe.........well...is that a pattern of the future?

Yes, yes - I can see the pragmatic logic: by and large, because girls retain their echt voices longer than boys, they are 'better bets' in terms of forward planning for eg the BBC. So it is not difficult to predict more of such ensembles eg Oxbridge choirs / London pro ensembles appearing regularly on CE.

I hope we manage to feature boy-led choirs, I think they need special treatment, and more encouragement - esp by the BBC.

[oddoneout]

Yes, I am delighted that more and more ensembles are being invited to take on CE responsibilities, BUT there is no doubt that it is at the expense of the boy-led choir. If you then take into account what certain clerics have done at Westminster / Sheffield. and the likely consequences of that, maybe.........well...is that a pattern of the future?

Yes, yes - I can see the pragmatic logic: by and large, because girls retain their echt voices longer than boys, they are 'better bets' in terms of forward planning for eg the BBC. So it is not difficult to predict more of such ensembles eg Oxbridge choirs / London pro ensembles appearing regularly on CE.

I hope we manage to feature boy-led choirs, I think they need special treatment, and more encouragement - esp by the BBC.

I am aware of the strong preference for boy led choirs in these parts, and I am not going to trot out the sometimes unpleasantly strident arguments against their domination as I don't agree with the adversarial stance too often taken on both sides. I would just like to make two points though. The broadcasts started in 1926 and it is only in (relatively) very recent times that girls voices have featured, reflecting the changes in church music provision, so the Beeb has done a fair bit of 'encouragement' over the years, even if it is by default. Secondly, the future of music in churches has for a good few years been problematic, for all sorts of reasons,and as recent unhappy cases have shown is going to become even more so, affecting the upper echelons in a way that would have been considered unthinkable just a couple of years ago. In light of that I would suggest that it is the CE choral tradition(yes I know other services are available) as a whole that needs encouragement in difficult and uncertain times, rather than special treatment for a particular version. Once the choral provision is lost (or reduced to a token offering), debate about boy/girl, men/women, breadth of repertoire, becomes rather pointless.

[cat]

But I should clarify that it is actually not at all uncommon to have just six regular lay clerks. Admittedly, some places with only six regular lay clerks sometimes bring in extra singers at least some of the time, but it would be wrong to think that this was the norm or the default for those choirs. Back on Etheldreda's Isle, much as it is a pity that we hardly ever get to see any of our extra singers at the moment, it is refreshing to have to work as just the core team of six regulars in the back row almost all the time for the moment. The idea that any self-respecting choir ought to have twelve or more singers in the back row all the time is rather unhelpful, I think. Having only six regular lay clerks is very tough work, and it's certainly not possible to be a passenger, but it can work very nicely, even in buildings which are more vast than Chichester Cathedral.

I know that a back row of six is not uncommon, and I didn't mean to imply it was in any way sub-optimal. I raised the overall numbers as point of interest because in Chichester's case the trebles are fewer than the 16-18 typical of most places (they were 12 yesterday I think, although their website says 14). I'm not sure of the merits or otherwise of various proportions, but obviously it works for them in their building.

[jonfan]

I am aware of the strong preference for boy led choirs in these parts, and I am not going to trot out the sometimes unpleasantly strident arguments against their domination as I don't agree with the adversarial stance too often taken on both sides. I would just like to make two points though. The broadcasts started in 1926 and it is only in (relatively) very recent times that girls voices have featured, reflecting the changes in church music provision, so the Beeb has done a fair bit of 'encouragement' over the years, even if it is by default. Secondly, the future of music in churches has for a good few years been problematic, for all sorts of reasons,and as recent unhappy cases have shown is going to become even more so, affecting the upper echelons in a way that would have been considered unthinkable just a couple of years ago. In light of that I would suggest that it is the CE choral tradition(yes I know other services are available) as a whole that needs encouragement in difficult and uncertain times, rather than special treatment for a particular version. Once the choral provision is lost (or reduced to a token offering), debate about boy/girl, men/women, breadth of repertoire, becomes rather pointless.

[omega consort]

I know that a back row of six is not uncommon, and I didn't mean to imply it was in any way sub-optimal. I raised the overall numbers as point of interest because in Chichester's case the trebles are fewer than the 16-18 typical of most places (they were 12 yesterday I think, although their website says 14). I'm not sure of the merits or otherwise of various proportions, but obviously it works for them in their building.

Salisbury is just 6 men too - and the building is a lot larger than Chichester! I took my choir to sing for a week in Chichester in 2017. We had a lovely time, and it is a simply gorgeous building in which to sing! However, it was a real squeeze in the stalls, which as already stated, accommodate 6 / 12 perfectly! My choir is 18 adults and 24 trebles - we had to use canons stalls, and still we spilt out the sides!

[ardcarp]

Yes, and Salisbury has had some lay clerks in the past with truly excellent voices. Personally, I love singing a part on my own....though others may differ!
I loved Chichester's broadcast too. I just had one tiny quibble with the direction. Does Father Smith really need a rallentando at the end of every response? Better without, IMHO, Especially obvious when the final (and glorious) 'amen' started off at quite a lick.

But it seems a shame to make any grumble with an excellent men-and-boys live broadcast, for which many thanks.

[W.Kearns]

'Father' Smith? I thought he was plain William Smith of Durham, c.1603-45.

[ardcarp]

You are right of course.

Put it down to a muddled organist's muddled mind!

[Pulcinella]

You are right of course.

Put it down to a muddled organist's muddled mind!

Hmm: Grove says that he was a minor canon, and precentor, so presumably he took holy orders, but whether in those days he would have been referred to as Father I'm not sure.

[cat]

Hmm: Grove says that he was a minor canon, and precentor, so presumably he took holy orders, but whether in those days he would have been referred to as Father I'm not sure.

Wasn't "father" only ever an informal means of address in the C of E? I assume it was out of favour in the early seventeenth century when one certainly didn't want to be mistaken for a papist.

[ardcarp]

Whilst on the subject of 'titles' in the C of E, I was chatting with a 'punctator' today. Any guesses anyone?

[Pulcinella]

Whilst on the subject of 'titles' in the C of E, I was chatting with a 'punctator' today. Any guesses anyone?

The person who points the psalms?
That's a form of punctuation, I suppose.

[oddoneout]

Whilst on the subject of 'titles' in the C of E, I was chatting with a 'punctator' today. Any guesses anyone?

Exeter has one apparently. https://twitter.com/revrichardcoles/...42010248957957

[ardcarp]

Exeter has one apparently.

It was the very same I was talking to. It is just their word for the senior lay clerk. Yes, it has to do with psalms mainly, but not pointing as we know it (writing the text out with bar-lines corresponding to the chant) but actually physically pointing, i.e. a sort of conducting so the choir knew when to change note. I think it predates Anglican chanting and may even have Hebrew connections even though, of course, it's a Latin word.

I'd just mention that the retiring senior lay clerk at Exeter was a much-loved figure who had also sung there as a chorister...and thus had a very long connection to the cathedral. I sang alongside him a lot in all sorts of non-cathedral groups.

[vinteuil]

Whilst on the subject of 'titles' in the C of E, I was chatting with a 'punctator' today. Any guesses anyone?

... in the Papal Choir, the punctator was the diarist, who was a choir member elected annually to the post. These 'diaries' provide detailed records on a day-to-day basis, enabling scholars to follow (for example) how often a composer like Morales was off sick, or was late for Matins...

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