News from Sheffield

[Cockney Sparrow]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ision-disband/

I ration my visits to the Telegraph as I'm not willing to pay into their coffers. But I see that by replying the gist of what is being linked to appears, and is:

"sheffield-cathedral-could-face-legal-challenge-decision-disband"

"...could..." .... hmm. If there are folks around with deep enough pockets to embark on such a hapless enterprise, I would think its better spent on supporting music making than lawyers - its unlikely, surely, that the Courts will intervene in the management (or poor mismnagement) of Sheffield Cathedral.

[ahinton]

See their programme of regular online webcasts which you can have delivered to your email address.
https://www.herefordcathedral.org/webcasts

Thank you for that.

[Simon Biazeck]

I ration my visits to the Telegraph as I'm not willing to pay into their coffers. But I see that by replying the gist of what is being linked to appears, and is:

"sheffield-cathedral-could-face-legal-challenge-decision-disband"

"...could..." .... hmm. If there are folks around with deep enough pockets to embark on such a hapless enterprise, I would think its better spent on supporting music-making than lawyers - it's unlikely, surely, that the Courts will intervene in the management (or poor mismanagement) of Sheffield Cathedral.

It's possible that members of the congregation or others in the wider community are funding this and perhaps they see it as the only support for the music they can offer in this situation...? It can't go unchallenged.

SBz

[Barbirollians]

I ration my visits to the Telegraph as I'm not willing to pay into their coffers. But I see that by replying the gist of what is being linked to appears, and is:

"sheffield-cathedral-could-face-legal-challenge-decision-disband"

"...could..." .... hmm. If there are folks around with deep enough pockets to embark on such a hapless enterprise, I would think its better spent on supporting music making than lawyers - its unlikely, surely, that the Courts will intervene in the management (or poor mismnagement) of Sheffield Cathedral.

Three members of staff have been dismissed without it seems any proper consultation. Doesn't sound like a hapless enterprise to me but a more than arguable case. The Dean's behaviour suggests he thinks he is living in Barchester not Sheffield .

[ardcarp]

Mention of

the French Navy

always reminds me of their motto: To the water. It is the hour.

In French, of course.....

[eighthobstruction]

Three members of staff have been dismissed without it seems any proper consultation. Doesn't sound like a hapless enterprise to me but a more than arguable case. The Dean's behaviour suggests he thinks he is living in Barchester not Sheffield .

....seeing news footage of Dean....he seems to be one of those people who walk around without swinging their arms, but ram rod straight[slightly leaning back]....is this something to do with being in religious processions.....or what?

[Historian]

Mention of



always reminds me of their motto: To the water. It is the hour.

In French, of course.....

Brian Johnston got Christopher Martin-Jenkins with this on Test Match Special a long time ago (obviously). Good to be reminded of it.

[Constantbee]

I think that the Easter Day 'service' was from the Archbishop's kitchen.

On other aspects (most recently the closure of churches during the pandemic, but in general the CofE's treatment of women and gay clergy, and attitudes towards same-sex marriage), I suspect we have a different idea of what the role of a top man should be.

Respectfully, I can't let go without a comment, pulci. You do realise that certain new ideas that might affect a reinterpretation of the sacramental life currently under discussion are threatening to split the Anglican communion right down the middle and threaten any kind of meaningful dialogue with Rome about inter-communion, or anything else, don’t you? There are people in this world who devote their lives to researching and working for Christian unity and controversial, divisive issues like these can cause a certain amount of spiritual distress.

As regards closing churches during the pandemic I think they were absolutely right to do that. I'm inclined to think those who disagree are more worried about loss of income than the spread of the virus.

[Pulcinella]

Respectfully, I can't let go without a comment, pulci. You do realise that certain new ideas that might affect a reinterpretation of the sacramental life currently under discussion are threatening to split the Anglican communion right down the middle and threaten any kind of meaningful dialogue with Rome about inter-communion, or anything else, don’t you? There are people in this world who devote their lives to researching and working for Christian unity and controversial, divisive issues like these can cause a certain amount of spiritual distress.

As regards closing churches during the pandemic I think they were absolutely right to do that. I'm inclined to think those who disagree are more worried about loss of income than the spread of the virus.

Not the right thread to pursue this on, I'm sure, but my opinion (and I certainly accept that there are others!) is that the Archbishops need to face up to this threat (as you describe it). Has the Anglican community in places where same-sex marriage celebrations are performed (Canada being one such, I think) really fallen apart into schism? To me, the solution is simple: differentiate between 'Holy Matrimony', if a sacramental rite is required, and 'Marriage', which the Church of England, as the established church in this country, is a ceremony that it should be obliged to carry out, since such a marriage is within the law of the land. I find the whole need for a set of so-called flying bishops, pandering to those who cannot accept the ordination of women, deeply disturbing. I'm not a confirmed Anglican, by the way, but my partner (a Quaker) and I, who both support the work of the Minster here in York, have told the fairly new Dean in no uncertain terms what we think of the current state of the CofE, and why we feel uncomfortable there.

[Alison]

I see Justin Welby and Stephen Cottrell as humble men of faith. I’m sure they wouldn’t subscribe at all to the notion that church is only about choral music - or indeed worship bands. The worship of worship is not really what Christianity is about.

In my experience folk are attracted to church by leaders who take the gospel seriously, aim to work it out in their everyday lives, however imperfectly, and inspire others to do the same.

You only have to look at the United Reformed Church, where core christian beliefs have often been wilfully ignored, to see that there is no life in that, and churches have closed by the bucketload.

[mw963]

Thanks for replying Alison, it's appreciated.

Sadly I don't see the faith that you do, at least not in a way that marks the A B of C out as clearly following the teachings of Christ. A colleague who is - admittedly - very evangelical (which I'm not) - is convinced that Welby doesn't even believe in God, and bases that (entirely sincere in her case) view of him on his actions and utterances. Now I wouldn't go as far as that, but the list of things that seem not to bother the A B of C (which were considered in my young day as "sins") is endless, whereas the only thing I ever hear him condemn is anyone who votes Conservative, which seems to be the only mortal sin in his book.

Now Rowan Williams may have been a bit ineffectual - but there seemed to be a man who had faith, and walked humbly with his God.

May I be forgiven if I'm doing Welby an injustice, but I know there are many who feel the same way. And it's desperately desperately sad, and if it wasn't for our excellent recently arrived vicar (she is absolutely wonderful) I would give up entirely on the C of E, it seems a completely alien organisation to me now.....

I'll shut up now, and apologise for going so off topic.

[oddoneout]

I see Justin Welby and Stephen Cottrell as humble men of faith. I’m sure they wouldn’t subscribe at all to the notion that church is only about choral music - or indeed worship bands. The worship of worship is not really what Christianity is about.

In my experience folk are attracted to church by leaders who take the gospel seriously, aim to work it out in their everyday lives, however imperfectly, and inspire others to do the same.

You only have to look at the United Reformed Church, where core christian beliefs have often been wilfully ignored, to see that there is no life in that, and churches have closed by the bucketload.

There are also those for whom it is simply habit, what everyone does etc - a social and demographic matter. That has been my experience of the ordinary middle class CofE. They are the ones who support, but can also stifle, the 'traditional' musical set-up. Thoughtful, pro-active, churches manage to reconcile different requirements and expectations by offering options of service type. With the the increasingly common model of several churches grouped together and having to share clerics rather than having individual vicars, that can give the option, judging by what I see around here and depending on resources(both lay and church), of individual churches adopting a style of worship that suits its congregation, but still offering within the parish grouping alternatives for those who wish.
Locally there were the usual ructions about women clerics, who first came on the scene many years ago here. It is now an accepted, and welcomed for the most part, part of church life. Other more recent points of controversy are proving I think a bit more difficult, but that is possibly as much to do with the nature of the area(large rural county) and demographic(not as diverse as large urban areas). Interestingly when the subject of alternative forms of marriage etc come up in conversation criticism is often levelled at 'senior management/chief executives' rather than local clerics.

[Yorksbass]

West Cath Choir - the Drome - has a wide 'diversity' of lads in it?

Very much decreasingly so, sadly. I'm sure a lot of that story has been covered elsewhere. But it tends to give ammunition to places such as Sheffield on the subject of diversity. I'll go and look for the proper thread now.

[PeterboroughDiapason]

I think this is worth reading: https://unherd.com/2020/07/church-ph...ure-all-wrong/

[mw963]

I think this is worth reading: https://unherd.com/2020/07/church-ph...ure-all-wrong/

Thank you for linking to that Giles Fraser article. Top stuff.

Close on 5000 signatures now, I think the Dean of Sheffield would be well advised to claim temporary insanity, suspend his decision, go on a little sabbatical, then come back after a rethink.