News from Sheffield

[Alison]

I guess neither of the above are dyed-in-the-wool pomp and ceremony types; I rather like that.

Justin Welby on New Wine Online on Sunday, giving a hint of my own preferences!

I love you Pulcinella :-)

[Alison]

Considering we weren't allowed to use churches, I think it would have been very arrogant and inconsistent of the Archbishop to broadcast from a cathedral.

[Pulcinella]

I guess neither of the above are dyed-in-the-wool pomp and ceremony types; I rather like that.

Justin Welby on New Wine Online on Sunday, giving a hint of my own preferences!

I love you Pulcinella :-)

[PeterboroughDiapason]

On other aspects (most recently the closure of churches during the pandemic,

I'm very sad the churches were closed, but considering all other places where people gathered were closed I think it would have been setting a very bad example if they'd stayed open.

Or, perhaps I'm missing your point?

[Pulcinella]

I'm very sad the churches were closed, but considering all other places where people gathered were closed I think it would have been setting a very bad example if they'd stayed open.

Or, perhaps I'm missing your point?

Perhaps.
I don't imagine that I'm alone in thinking that clergy at the very least should have been allowed in their churches to perform the daily offices etc, and that the archbishops should have made a stronger argument for that to be the case.
Such services could presumably then fairly easily have been streamed, using a remote camera or a socially distanced operator, as with the Wigmore Hall recitals (or previously mentioned Gardeners' World).

[Alison]

Going back to cathedrals, there seem to be too many examples of strife and toxicity for comfort.

Does a Dean essentially have too much power and too little accountability?

[cat]

Perhaps.
I don't imagine that I'm alone in thinking that clergy at the very least should have been allowed in their churches to perform the daily offices etc, and that the archbishops should have made a stronger argument for that to be the case.
Such services could presumably then fairly easily have been streamed, using a remote camera or a socially distanced operator, as with the Wigmore Hall recitals (or previously mentioned Gardeners' World).

I agree completely, although it was entirely the archbishops‘ decision to close the churches, - the law always had provision even at the height of lockdown for ministers to travel to churches and livestream services from them.

[ardcarp]

I don't really go along with the statement: "The choirs of the Church of England are its voice, and perhaps its greatest voice." For me, yes, the greatest voice of cathedrals and greater churches, but do they speak for the parishes that are struggling just to exist?

I'm sure I have made the point many times, but think of the great festivals of Easter and Christmas where churches that have taken the trouble to maintain their musical tradition are packed because of the music. People wouldn't be turning out in droves to see a handful of clergy, however finely garbed.

On the subject of the number of bishops, one has to remember that the title 'bishop' sticks even after retirement; i.e. once a bishop, always a bishop. It's rather like the Royal Navy that has more Admirals than it does ships.

[mw963]

Very good points Peterborough. I really think the senior leadership of the Church of England has never been better.

I’d like to see the Bishop of Sheffield go in and sort out the mess at the cathedral. But doubt whether it works like that.

I think we must live in parallel universes Alison. On what do you base your admiration of the senior leadership? (Serious question, it's not to provoke an argument (at least not with me), but I'd be interested to "hear the other side").

At our local cathedral a few years ago the Bishop jumped in - far too late and far too heavily - in a Dean-related storm, and ended up with I think only two of the canons left; (six (I think it was) b*gg*red off in the fall-out). The Bishop came up smelling of roses, but frankly seemed to me to have acted both tardily and clumsily in every move he made. Still, sales of popcorn went up in the area.....

[mw963]

I don't understand why we have more and more bishops while we have fewer and fewer people in the churches. And I don't even know what all these bishops do which can't be done by Archdeacons and others (apart from ordinations and confirmations.) Personally I think they've too much time on their hands, to judge by the amount they tweet!

You've written exactly what I was about to write on the subject of Bishops etc tweeting. Too much time playing on their phones. Well said.

[mw963]

I'm sure I have made the point many times, but think of the great festivals of Easter and Christmas where churches that have taken the trouble to maintain their musical tradition are packed because of the music. People wouldn't be turning out in droves to see a handful of clergy, however finely garbed.

On the subject of the number of bishops, one has to remember that the title 'bishop' sticks even after retirement; i.e. once a bishop, always a bishop. It's rather like the Royal Navy that has more Admirals than it does ships.

Absolutely agree on your first point. I'm sure the Dean of Sheffield has a very high opinion of his own sermons. Clearly much higher than that which he holds on the subject of the choir.

When I put about that figure of 108 Bishops I don't think it included any retired ones. Another list I found seems to suggest there are over 110 of them currently employed fiddling about in the C of E. And you're right about the Navy and boats, When you put all that together it rather suggests that it's a shared trait of organisations in decline, although in the case of the Navy I'm not sure it's their fault.....

[oddoneout]

Absolutely agree on your first point. I'm sure the Dean of Sheffield has a very high opinion of his own sermons. Clearly much higher than that which he holds on the subject of the choir.

When I put about that figure of 108 Bishops I don't think it included any retired ones. Another list I found seems to suggest there are over 110 of them currently employed fiddling about in the C of E. And you're right about the Navy and boats, When you put all that together it rather suggests that it's a shared trait of organisations in decline, although in the case of the Navy I'm not sure it's their fault.....

Comparisons are odious and all that but...
The catholic church seems to be at the other extreme, at least here - I haven't looked at the national picture. In this neck of the woods the county dioceses were amalgamated to form the diocese of East Anglia, with one bishop. I realise that comparisons between them and CofE have limits but that doesn't mean there is nothing to be learned? The music arrangement appears to be very different and probably has little/less to offer by way of example (although if the loss of music department personnel and choirs continues that might have to change?) as it seems to be organised centrally.
Wiki says there are 42 dioceses(CofE), which makes 42 'core' bishops - of which 21 get to be in the House of Lords. I suspect that might not be helpful when/if consideration of slimming down the episcopal personnel comes to the table. I don't have the great antipathy that many express towards the HoL but I do find that number of clerics difficult to justify.

[Historian]

And you're right about the Navy and boats, When you put all that together it rather suggests that it's a shared trait of organisations in decline, although in the case of the Navy I'm not sure it's their fault.....

At the risk of moving this rather far off -thread, I had a quick look at the Navy List of February 1804 which I have to hand. 120 admirals (although most of them would not have been in active employment), as well as 23 Superannuated Admirals. 461 active ships (not 'boats') and another 230-plus not in current use. I am not going to state how many active ships the RN has at present, because I find it too depressing. However, it is less than the French Navy, which is historically all wrong.

[PeterboroughDiapason]

I'm sure I have made the point many times, but think of the great festivals of Easter and Christmas where churches that have taken the trouble to maintain their musical tradition are packed because of the music. People wouldn't be turning out in droves to see a handful of clergy, however finely garbed.

Yes, of course. But providing sacred concerts isn't what the church is for. It's the churchgoers who turn up week by week putting money in the plate or, more likely, paying by standing order that keep the church going. Cathedrals are able to have professional choirs and organists (with the the help of the Church Commissioners who pay clergy salaries and give other help) because of the income from tourism as well, of course, as from the cathedral congregation's donations. You say "where churches taken the trouble to maintain their musical tradition" - but where would they get the money from?

The music in cathedrals is the (wonderful) icing on the cake, but not the cake. If all cathedrals had to close down it would be desperately sad, but the church would still carry on.

Of course, since this is a Radio 3 Forum, it quite rightly focusses on cathedral and cathedral-style music. However we have strayed into discussion of the church and clergy themselves.

[Jack Pudding]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/28/sheffield-cathedral-could-face-legal-challenge-decision-disband/