News from Sheffield

[PeterboroughDiapason]

Fantastically well written article and definitely, as you say JP, worth a read.

Yes, very well written but it seems to be based on the premise that cathedrals are the Church of England. Much as I treasure cathedral choirs and music I'm also concerned about the parish churches up and down the country; congregations who are struggling, literally, to keep a roof over the heads, let alone pay the Parish Share so they can have a priest. The article also seems to tar all senior clergy with the same brush: "the senior clergy and bishops, who have allowed the prophetic voice of Christ to fall silent, and have hidden behind the comforting mantras of organisational bureaucracy and PR." The church needs to rationalize - Covid-19 has probably made this more necessary. I think there may have to be fewer bishops and dioceses, and therefore cathedrals.

Mind you, I make no excuse for what seems to have gone on at Sheffield - though I have no knowledge of the full circumstances.

I don't really go along with the statement: "The choirs of the Church of England are its voice, and perhaps its greatest voice." For me, yes, the greatest voice of cathedrals and greater churches, but do they speak for the parishes that are struggling just to exist?

[DracoM]

Might you care to elaborate on that?...

See their programme of regular online webcasts which you can have delivered to your email address.

https://www.herefordcathedral.org/webcasts

[mw963]

I think there may have to be fewer bishops and dioceses, and therefore cathedrals.

I'm no expert on the C of E senior structure, but a quick google suggests that there are 108 Bishops - of which I'd call only the 42 diocesan ones "proper" Bishops. (Please feel free to correct my figures, it was only a quick glance).

Plenty of scope therefore for a grand cull, before we start on the cathedral choirs.

Still, I shall be amazed to see the day where a single Bishop position is dispensed with. Do we even actually need a Dean AND a Bishop in each place?

[DracoM]

Deans really run the day-to-day show, IME

[Pulcinella]

I'm no expert on the C of E senior structure, but a quick google suggests that there are 108 Bishops - of which I'd call only the 42 diocesan ones "proper" Bishops. (Please feel free to correct my figures, it was only a quick glance).

Plenty of scope therefore for a grand cull, before we start on the cathedral choirs.

Still, I shall be amazed to see the day where a single Bishop position is dispensed with. Do we even actually need a Dean AND a Bishop in each place?

Well, the new Archbishop of York recently had this to say about a Sunday Times report of a cull:

Reported cull of bishops, catherdals [sic!], and dioceses is misleading, says Cottrell (Church Times).

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2020/29-may/news/uk/reported-cull-of-bishops-and-dioceses-is-misleading-says-cottrell

(It looks like the article can be read freely, without registering.)

[PeterboroughDiapason]

I'm no expert on the C of E senior structure, but a quick google suggests that there are 108 Bishops - of which I'd call only the 42 diocesan ones "proper" Bishops. (Please feel free to correct my figures, it was only a quick glance).

I don't understand why we have more and more bishops while we have fewer and fewer people in the churches. And I don't even know what all these bishops do which can't be done by Archdeacons and others (apart from ordinations and confirmations.) Personally I think they've too much time on their hands, to judge by the amount they tweet!

[cat]

When I learnt there was a Bishop of Dunwich, the first thing that came to mind was the Members of Parliament for Old Sarum.

[Pulcinella]

When I learnt there was a Bishop of Dunwich, the first thing that came to mind was the Members of Parliament for Old Sarum.

Well, he's only a suffragan (or suffering, as I used to think of it!) bishop, and at least the title has some history, even though it was only 'resurrected' in 1934. And what a splendid name the first (modern) incumbent had!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Dunwich

[teamsaint]

Well, he's only a suffragan (or suffering, as I used to think of it!) bishop, and at least the title has some history, even though it was only 'resurrected' in 1934. And what a splendid name the first (modern) incumbent had!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Dunwich

Wonderfull !!
( His successor had a fine name too ).
I was never quite sure why Ramsbury ( a tiny place not too far from nowhere much, but quite near Marlborough) , has a bishop, but there you go.
Suffragan bishop always struck me as rather a nice job, plenty of kudos, but not so much diocesan squabbling to sort out.
Especially good if you are fond of fetes, and new school buildings........

[Alison]

Yes, very well written but it seems to be based on the premise that cathedrals are the Church of England. Much as I treasure cathedral choirs and music I'm also concerned about the parish churches up and down the country; congregations who are struggling, literally, to keep a roof over the heads, let alone pay the Parish Share so they can have a priest. The article also seems to tar all senior clergy with the same brush: "the senior clergy and bishops, who have allowed the prophetic voice of Christ to fall silent, and have hidden behind the comforting mantras of organisational bureaucracy and PR." The church needs to rationalize - Covid-19 has probably made this more necessary. I think there may have to be fewer bishops and dioceses, and therefore cathedrals.

Mind you, I make no excuse for what seems to have gone on at Sheffield - though I have no knowledge of the full circumstances.

I don't really go along with the statement: "The choirs of the Church of England are its voice, and perhaps its greatest voice." For me, yes, the greatest voice of cathedrals and greater churches, but do they speak for the parishes that are struggling just to exist?

Very good points Peterborough. I really think the senior leadership of the Church of England has never been better.

I’d like to see the Bishop of Sheffield go in and sort out the mess at the cathedral. But doubt whether it works like that.

[Pulcinella]

Very good points Peterborough. I really think the senior leadership of the Church of England has never been better.

I’d like to see the Bishop of Sheffield go in and sort out the mess at the cathedral. But doubt whether it works like that.

Really?
Easter eucharist from the kitchen?

If Gardeners' World could work out how to use remote cameras, surely the service could have been transmitted from a chapel if not the cathedral.

[gradus]

Well, he's only a suffragan (or suffering, as I used to think of it!) bishop, and at least the title has some history, even though it was only 'resurrected' in 1934. And what a splendid name the first (modern) incumbent had!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Dunwich

St Edmundsbury which includes Dunwich and our little parish, makes financial demands by way of the Parish Share that we cannot meet, but that doesn't prevent them from trying to apply the thumbscrews. Apart from the Bishop of Dunwich other Gilbertian fancies include fairly regular overseas trips by the Bish himself usually covered by the local rag with pics of him wearing his full rig and officiating at some obscure ceremony/service or other. This is really irritating, to put it mildly, for those of us who are pushed by his underlings to raise more and more to keep the diocese going.

[Alison]

Really?
Easter eucharist from the kitchen?

If Gardeners' World could work out how to use remote cameras, surely the service could have been transmitted from a chapel if not the cathedral.

Not sure what you’re referring to there but Justin W and Stephen C top men IMHO.

An absence of a cathedral setting would not have upset me.

[Pulcinella]

Not sure what you’re referring to there but Justin W and Stephen C top men IMHO.

An absence of a cathedral setting would not have upset me.

I think that the Easter Day 'service' was from the Archbishop's kitchen.

On other aspects (most recently the closure of churches during the pandemic, but in general the CofE's treatment of women and gay clergy, and attitudes towards same-sex marriage), I suspect we have a different idea of what the role of a top man should be.

[PeterboroughDiapason]

Really?
Easter eucharist from the kitchen?

If Gardeners' World could work out how to use remote cameras, surely the service could have been transmitted from a chapel if not the cathedral.

Considering we weren't allowed to use churches, I think it would have been very arrogant and inconsistent of the Archbishop to broadcast from a cathedral.