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  • Vox Humana
    Full Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 1261

    #61
    Originally posted by Cockney Sparrow View Post
    I've just listened to a trailer for the "World this weekend" 1pm today. They will be covering the story arising from the Sheffield news story.
    In the event this wasn't about Sheffield at all, but a short discussion with Alex Berry of Bradfield Cathedral and Suzi Digby of ORA and the Voices Foundation about recruitment and diversity. It was refreshingly positive. You can hear it from 24:10 here:
    Listen without limits, with BBC Sounds. Catch the latest music tracks, discover binge-worthy podcasts, or listen to radio shows – all whenever you want

    Comment

    • mw963
      Full Member
      • Feb 2012
      • 538

      #62
      Petition duly signed. About 300 signatures in the last five hours.

      Good luck to those trying to get the Dean to change his mind, although now he's talking about "prayerful discernment" I suspect he's digging in for the long fight. Generally once priests start claiming that the Almighty is on their side you know that they're getting desperate. And it's so ruddy patronising to those of us who don't employ such (in my view) below-the-belt tactics.

      Comment

      • DracoM
        Host
        • Mar 2007
        • 13009

        #63

        Comment

        • oddoneout
          Full Member
          • Nov 2015
          • 9423

          #64
          Having looked through various statements, comments etc from both sides a couple of things struck me. Firstly, beyond the original 'consultation exercise' in 2018, there doesn't seem to have been any further involvement of the various parties (stakeholders I suppose would be the current term) in coming up with solutions to the issues raised; the 'management' identified matters to be addressed and then presented its plan as a fait accompli. Secondly, and this comes out in comments from the music side, there doesn't seem to have been any investigation of how other similar establishments have dealt with such problems.
          Out in the wider world the tactic of getting rid of the existing work-force, when current arrangements don't suit management, and then expecting re-engage them (invariably on less favourable terms) doesn't make for a happy and productive team, and it would have been prudent to consider that example.Even if it was not thought directly applicable there are lessons to be learned from the process.
          The fact that a statement has been felt necessary after the event suggests to me a lack of awareness and consideration of the impact of the decision on those affected, and a scrabbling to try(ineffectually) and address problems which arguably shouldn't have arisen in the first place.
          Even in 'normal' times risking losing the support and goodwill of those actively involved in the cathedral life and work would not have been a sensible thing to do, but in time of crisis it is even more regrettable. The vibrations from such rifts can continue for many years and hamper progress, as I've seen over the years.
          Perhaps now, said management could spare some time from its 'prayerful considerations'(which can only ever be a form of second guessing, being as it is a human take on 'what would God do'), which seem to have rather blinded it to the human dimension, and consider how it can begin a process of reconciliation and healing. Damage has been done, some of which possibly cannot be mended; time to pause and try to avoid causing more?

          Comment

          • DracoM
            Host
            • Mar 2007
            • 13009

            #65
            Catholic churches have confessionals.
            Maybe there ought to be on in Sheffield Cathedral particularly for clerics?
            ....................And well out of earshot of an angry organist and disappearing choir?

            Prob may well be that they will NEVER again have the collective will and /or resources to resurrect a choir. So this might NOT be temporary at all but a statement of policy for the long term future. If so.......the impoverishment of the religious life there is too chilly to contemplate.

            AND parents from now on may well be VERY chary of ever getting their kids involved,

            Comment

            • oddoneout
              Full Member
              • Nov 2015
              • 9423

              #66
              Originally posted by DracoM View Post
              Catholic churches have confessionals.
              Maybe there ought to be on in Sheffield Cathedral particularly for clerics?
              ....................And well out of earshot of an angry organist and disappearing choir?

              Prob may well be that they will NEVER again have the collective will and /or resources to resurrect a choir. So this might NOT be temporary at all but a statement of policy for the long term future. If so.......the impoverishment of the religious life there is too chilly to contemplate.

              AND parents from now on may well be VERY chary of ever getting their kids involved,
              But if they don't consider they have done anything wrong they wouldn't see the need to confess? Being focused is OK until it becomes tunnel vision and alternative views are not considered, which is what seems to have happened in this case.

              Comment

              • DracoM
                Host
                • Mar 2007
                • 13009

                #67
                Well, all I can say, they ain't listening to national and local news, nor reading local and national newspapers if they remain in a state of ignorance about the impact!

                Comment

                • mw963
                  Full Member
                  • Feb 2012
                  • 538

                  #68
                  Am I going senile or has a recent post linking to an article in Le Figaro disappeared?

                  In any case, 1300 more signatures in just over twenty-four hours, good progress.

                  Comment

                  • mopsus
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 850

                    #69
                    No, I saw it fleetingly too. oddoneout has pretty much expressed my views. The address on Sunday mentioned one current difficulty, namely recruiting boy and girl choristers of different ages from the same school. I can see there are practical difficulties in moving from older to younger girl choristers (if that's what they want to do), one being that you risk an age cohort of girls missing out altogether on the chance to be in the choir. But they can't be insuperable and upsetting everyone in the choir by disbanding it is surely not the way to go about it.

                    Comment

                    • oddoneout
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2015
                      • 9423

                      #70
                      Originally posted by mopsus View Post
                      No, I saw it fleetingly too. oddoneout has pretty much expressed my views. The address on Sunday mentioned one current difficulty, namely recruiting boy and girl choristers of different ages from the same school. I can see there are practical difficulties in moving from older to younger girl choristers (if that's what they want to do), one being that you risk an age cohort of girls missing out altogether on the chance to be in the choir. But they can't be insuperable and upsetting everyone in the choir by disbanding it is surely not the way to go about it.
                      Both that auditioning reference and the comment following it about livestreaming services only goes to reinforce my view that they haven't really made much, if any effort, to look at how such things are managed elsewhere. Just a quick google search suggests that the catholic church in particular in this part of the world has been pretty busy addressing the livestreaming issue by a mixture of approaches, such as linking up with a local business to install a good quality permanent system in the city cathedral helped by financial support from a benefactor.

                      Comment

                      • DracoM
                        Host
                        • Mar 2007
                        • 13009

                        #71
                        .............and Hereford Cathedral has a bit of a lesson to hand on as well.

                        Comment

                        • Jack Pudding
                          Full Member
                          • Feb 2018
                          • 13

                          #72
                          Worth reading: https://thecritic.co.uk/vox-populi-vox-dei/

                          Comment

                          • eighthobstruction
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 6473

                            #73
                            Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                            Having looked through various statements, comments etc from both sides a couple of things struck me. Firstly, beyond the original 'consultation exercise' in 2018, there doesn't seem to have been any further involvement of the various parties (stakeholders I suppose would be the current term) in coming up with solutions to the issues raised; the 'management' identified matters to be addressed and then presented its plan as a fait accompli. Secondly, and this comes out in comments from the music side, there doesn't seem to have been any investigation of how other similar establishments have dealt with such problems.
                            Out in the wider world the tactic of getting rid of the existing work-force, when current arrangements don't suit management, and then expecting re-engage them (invariably on less favourable terms) doesn't make for a happy and productive team, and it would have been prudent to consider that example.Even if it was not thought directly applicable there are lessons to be learned from the process.
                            The fact that a statement has been felt necessary after the event suggests to me a lack of awareness and consideration of the impact of the decision on those affected, and a scrabbling to try(ineffectually) and address problems which arguably shouldn't have arisen in the first place.
                            Even in 'normal' times risking losing the support and goodwill of those actively involved in the cathedral life and work would not have been a sensible thing to do, but in time of crisis it is even more regrettable. The vibrations from such rifts can continue for many years and hamper progress, as I've seen over the years.
                            Perhaps now, said management could spare some time from its 'prayerful considerations'(which can only ever be a form of second guessing, being as it is a human take on 'what would God do'), which seem to have rather blinded it to the human dimension, and consider how it can begin a process of reconciliation and healing. Damage has been done, some of which possibly cannot be mended; time to pause and try to avoid causing more?
                            ....well sais oddone'....
                            bong ching

                            Comment

                            • ahinton
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 16123

                              #74
                              Originally posted by DracoM View Post
                              .............and Hereford Cathedral has a bit of a lesson to hand on as well.
                              Might you care to elaborate on that?...

                              Comment

                              • ardcarp
                                Late member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 11102

                                #75
                                Originally posted by Jack Pudding View Post
                                Fantastically well written article and definitely, as you say JP, worth a read.

                                Comment

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