News from Sheffield

[Keraulophone]

It also made me wonder, somewhat inappropriately, whether Choral Evensong could be a bit of a money spinner ?

A collection is taken here on Sundays but not at weekday Evensongs. They rarely announce where it is going; usually 'for the work of the cathedral'. It could only be a money spinner at places like York Minster, King's Cambridge and Westminster Abbey who (in a normal year) get huge numbers of tourists.

[cat]

A collection is taken here on Sundays but not at weekday Evensongs. They rarely announce where it is going; usually 'for the work of the cathedral'. It could only be a money spinner at places like York Minster, King's Cambridge and Westminster Abbey who (in a normal year) get huge numbers of tourists.

King's collect at every service, 20% to charity 80% to the chapel (& presumably choir).

I don't recall a collection at Westminster Abbey, certainly not mid-week when I would normally attend.

[gurnemanz]

Boys' choirs can keep going. In Leipzig (my wife's home town) they ask you to buy a programmes for 2 Euros at the weekly Motet performance of the Thomanerchor in Bach' s old church. We have attended many times in past years. The boys are on their summer break now but resumed singing to an audience on 14th June, going through to 17th July. (Newspaper report here - in German) They sing from a gallery and are hygienically distanced in that way. For rehearsal and performance the choir has been divided into six smaller groups called "Kantoreien", each of 12 boys. The are named after previous Thomaskantors, thus honouring their long history. Audiences are limited to 200 and asked maintain 1.5 metre distance, sitting only on designated seats.

[Keraulophone]

Boys' choirs can keep going.

Some may not: https://theviolinchannel.com/vienna-...ency-covid-19/

I want to emphasise that ‘Boys’ choirs’ are not all of the same type. The Thomanerchor, numbering around 90 aged 9-18 of whom 50 or so sing the treble and alto parts, are very different from English boys’ cathedral choirs, which may typically comprise 12-18 boys of whom just a handful of the older boys contribute most of the sound. The former sing three times a week in the Thomaskirche plus concerts in Germany and regular foreign tours, while the latter sing the daily cycle of the Divine Office, the Opus Dei, with perhaps the occasional concert and tour.

[Vox Humana]

I hope that this attitude, expressed in a Comment column in today's Times, is not widespread (but fear that it might be):

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/good-riddance-to-insanely-expensive-cathedral-choirs-2bj07k985?shareToken=6e237efe9c6c22b74eb302c6846ded99

Sheffield is mentioned.
The heading is: Good riddance to insanely expensive cathedral choirs

Unfortunately this view is very widely held. I have just been 'unfriended' on Facebook by a former school 'friend' because I refused to accept his rabid prejudice against Christianity and 'elitist' education. He always was a bit difficult and in old age has become unbearable. I shan't miss him.

That said, I did wonder whether this ill-informed and superficial Times piece is actually a bluff. Maybe the writer really supports cathedral music and wrote this provocative snippet in order to drum up an avalanche of letters extolling the virtues of choirs. Sadly, though, I doubt it. The Times will no doubt also get as many letters supporting the author.

[gurnemanz]

Some may not: https://theviolinchannel.com/vienna-...ency-covid-19/

I want to emphasise that ‘Boys’ choirs’ are not all of the same type. The Thomanerchor, numbering around 90 aged 9-18 of whom 50 or so sing the treble and alto parts, are very different from English boys’ cathedral choirs, which may typically comprise 12-18 boys of whom just a handful of the older boys contribute most of the sound. The former sing three times a week in the Thomaskirche plus concerts in Germany and regular foreign tours, while the latter sing the daily cycle of the Divine Office, the Opus Dei, with perhaps the occasional concert and tour.

Thanks for that information. I can see that comparisons are difficult. My general point was that there seems to be a lot more public music making on the Continent than here. Ian Bostridge was on In Tune yesterday. He said he recently did a Winterreise in Switzerland, distanced but with a lot of older people in the audience.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I only access The Times online (I keep considering cancelling but big Events keep coming along...). Some of the comments for this article were lengthy, pointing out the benefits, both known to the commenter and more generally. Under 5% of posts were in any form of agreement or neutral. A fair few indignant comments. One of them:

Tim Jones:
"Yeah, good article. And we should maybe smash all the stained glass windows cos most people just say ooh at the pretty colours and don't understand proper art or craftsmanship. And let's ban the Times as well cos most people like the Sun or the Mirror. And the Tate museums - what's the point, now we've got so many TV channels for people to watch?"

I hadn't doubted the views expressed in the piece nor that the author is bluffing, but the motives of The Times in printing it might be to generate response and controversy on a topic other than Covid and the government. ( Or given the widespread absence of education of the young about the Christian church - a complete lack of knowledge of the Anglican church, its music and tradition).

The Times also run at least one story each day about the over 75s resistance to the evil BBC and its licence fee decision. (BBC will prosecute 88 year olds, BBC threatens the Bailiffs etc etc). They've had a fair few months to generate the necessary headlines and articles before its come into operation).

[oddoneout]

Clickbait innit? A reasoned and factual, rather than simply opinionated, article wouldn't have attracted anywhere near as much attention. It reminds me of the discussion started originally by French Frank I think about why a carefully crafted reply/argument/opinion gets ignored in favour of a kneejerk soundbite.

[Dave2002]

Trouble is not everyone likes irony, and sometimes even people round here get fooled. Hard to tell about the Times article.

I’m not a fan of religion, but it would be a shame to lose the sound of the trained choirs.

OTOH was there a similar outcry when castrati were banned?

[Roger Judd]

à propos earlier comments about the Thomaskirche in Leipzig, and Ian Bostridge's experiences in concertizing in Switzerland, the Thomaskirche has been host to a number of public concerts recently which are out on YouTube. Beautifully sung and played with social-distancing in place and a decent-sized audience, similarly distanced and suitably be-masked. Why are we not doing similar in our churches and cathedrals? It all seems so negative here, and, to say the least, the government is giving us no clear guidance.
RJ

[Dave2002]

Unfortunately this view is very widely held. I have just been 'unfriended' on Facebook by a former school 'friend' because I refused to accept his rabid prejudice against Christianity and 'elitist' education. He always was a bit difficult and in old age has become unbearable. I shan't miss him.

Sad when "Unfriending" or "Unfollowing" on social media sites is seen as something important! The madness of it all - see Donald T versus Piers Morgan - who cares?

[Vox Humana]

Sad when "Unfriending" or "Unfollowing" on social media sites is seen as something important! The madness of it all - see Donald T versus Piers Morgan - who cares?

I agree, but that wasn't what was significant. The point is that, half a century ago, this individual was a personal friend. Since we were teenagers society has made significant progress towards mutual tolerance of those who are different. I had hoped he might have evolved accordingly and am saddened that he has not, but I feel no guilt at refusing to tolerate prejudice. There are plenty of others like him out there. I used to come across them all the time in the day job.

[PeterboroughDiapason]

I’m not a fan of religion, but it would be a shame to lose the sound of the trained choirs.

From the Times article: The Church of England is the guardian of thousands of churches. They are one of the great glories of this country and many of them are in great jeopardy. Maintaining and restoring them is where the money should be going. Music cannot die, but the fabric of our churches, when lost, will be irreparable.

As the organist at a village church whose 12th/13th century tower needs urgent repair I sympathise with that a little.

Yes, we do want to keep the amazing cathedral choirs, but they are now very expensive compared to the days when there was just an organist and an assistant who might be called on once a week. For very good reasons, of course: the need for girls choirs as well as boys and the greatly increased range and complexity of the music.

I think these choirs need to be self-supporting, whether through tourists or fund-raising music trusts, congregational donations and other means. They shouldn't rely on hand-outs from the Church Commissioners - cathedrals get enough of their money.

I do recognise the great difficulties cathedrals face at the moment and that if the choirs disappear we may never get them back. However I don't think it's unacceptable to question how the church's money is spent. Cathedrals still have plenty of clergy looking after them, but churches often have to share one priest among many churches in a benefice.

[Keraulophone]

I think these choirs need to be self-supporting, whether through tourists or fund-raising music trusts, congregational donations and other means. They shouldn't rely on hand-outs from the Church Commissioners - cathedrals get enough of their money.

I do recognise the great difficulties cathedrals face at the moment and that if the choirs disappear we may never get them back.

They cannot be entirely self-supporting unless significantly altered, eg volunteer unpaid lay clerks. My cathedral doesn’t charge for entry nor receives the number of tourists that, say, York Minster gets, and its choir does not ‘rely on handouts from the Church Commissioners’ - except for the present one-off as they are match-funding the Cathedrals Music Trust (FCM) to support lay clerks from September until Easter.

You’re right about one thing - you may never get them back. The funding of the maintenance of the fabric of Truro Cathedral was a necessary priority under Dean Lloyd (1960-81). Since the 1990s the music department has benefitted from various financial and organisational developments such as the introduction of choral scholars by Andrew Nethsingha. This hasn’t been to the detriment of the building, however: a new roof has recently been provided, with a significant part of the money coming from a sign-a-slate sponsoring scheme.

[PeterboroughDiapason]

They cannot be entirely self-supporting unless significantly altered, eg volunteer unpaid lay clerks. My cathedral doesn’t charge for entry nor receives the number of tourists that, say, York Minster gets, and its choir does not ‘rely on handouts from the Church Commissioners’ - except for the present one-off as they are match-funding the Cathedrals Music Trust (FCM) to support lay clerks from September until Easter.

Am I right in thinking that the Church Commissioners pay for some of the clergy in each cathedral? (I could be wrong as cathedral finances are shrouded in mystery!) If so, the cathedral would probably struggle to finance the choir if they had to pay for their clergy as well, as parish churches do. We have to pay our parish share even though we've had 4 months without services and, therefore, money on plates. Like many churches we struggle to pay the parish share and the pensions of huge numbers of retired clergy. Does it matter if our historic church falls down? Admittedly many of the congregation pay by standing order and I do recognise that cathedrals that rely on tourism are incredibly badly hit. Giles Fraser wrote: "At the moment, 110 per cent of our parishioners’ giving goes to the diocese. We also give another ten per cent of it to charity. Mr Micawber would turn in his grave."

However it seems to me that on this forum it is not considered acceptable to question the necessity for cathedrals to have choirs singing every day at great expense. Is it the best way for the church to fulfil its role of spreading the Gospel of Christ? It may be. However forumites, on the whole, seem to believe that the question shouldn't be asked and that the existence of such wonderful music is its own justification.