Choral Vespers Wed, Oct 9th 2019 [A] Westminster Cathedral

[DracoM]

Choral Vespers Wed, Oct 9th 2019 [A]
Westminster Cathedral
For the Feast of Blessed John Henry Newman
(first broadcast 9 October 2013)


Order of Service:


Introit: Tout puissant (Poulenc)
Hymn: Iste confessor (Plainsong)
Psalms 14, 111 (Plainsong)
Canticle: Magna et mirabilia (Plainsong)
Responsory: Iustus Dominus (Plainsong)
Magnificat for Double Chorus, Op.164 (Stanford)
Motet: Iustorum animæ (Stanford)
Antiphon: Salve Regina (Poulenc)

Organ Voluntary: Præludium in E minor (Bruhns)

Peter Stevens (Assistant Master of Music)
Edward Symington (Organ Scholar)

Martin Baker (Master of Music)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00094c7

[DracoM]

The BBC are re-broadcasting this on the expectation that on Wednesday, the Vatican is scheduled to proclaim the beatification of John Henry Newman.

[mopsus]

I think you mean canonisation, don't you? He was beatified in 2010 when Pope Benedict visited Britain.

[Miles Coverdale]

A few years ago on Radio 4 there was an afternoon play about Newman and his rather effete coterie at the Birmingham Oratory. They kept referring to the Virgin Mary as 'Mama', so I had to turn it off before I started throwing things at my radio.

[un barbu]

A few years ago on Radio 4 there was an afternoon play about Newman and his rather effete coterie at the Birmingham Oratory. They kept referring to the Virgin Mary as 'Mama', so I had to turn it off before I started throwing things at my radio.

I wouldn't deny that rather treacly side of things in the milieu in which he lived but would put in the other scale Newman's reply to a letter from a very fashionable prelate in 1864:

"Dear Monsignore Talbot,

I have received your letter inviting me to preach next Lent in your church at Rome to 'an audience...more educated than could ever be the case in England.' However, Birmingham people have souls and I have neither the taste nor the talent for the sort of work which you cut out for me. And I beg to decline your offer."

(And it was also the case that in later life he was known by the younger fathers as 'Noggs' ....A healthier attitude)

[DracoM]

I think you mean canonisation, don't you? He was beatified in 2010 when Pope Benedict visited Britain.

Sorry - getting my nomenclature in a mess.

[vinteuil]

.

... even those who find Gerontius inexcusable, and particularly in its 'musical' garb, might find his Idea of a University interesting. The Apologia has its moments, too, I seem to recall...

.

[un barbu]

.

... even those who find Gerontius inexcusable, and particularly in its 'musical' garb, might find his Idea of a University interesting. The Apologia has its moments, too, I seem to recall...

.

'The Idea' is, as you say, interesting and stimulating, his prose style is streets ahead of the rather poor verse of 'Gerontius', and I think G. M. Young was spot on in his judgment on the 'Apologia' when he described Newman's response to Kingsley's attack thus: "It was the bowling of the village champion with a Blue at the wicket, and what did not go wide went to the boundary."

[Miles Coverdale]

I wouldn't deny that rather treacly side of things in the milieu in which he lived but would put in the other scale Newman's reply to a letter from a very fashionable prelate in 1864:

"Dear Monsignore Talbot,

I have received your letter inviting me to preach next Lent in your church at Rome to 'an audience...more educated than could ever be the case in England.' However, Birmingham people have souls and I have neither the taste nor the talent for the sort of work which you cut out for me. And I beg to decline your offer."

(And it was also the case that in later life he was known by the younger fathers as 'Noggs' ....A healthier attitude)

I'm not quite sure what the quote from Newman is supposed to show. Talbot was clearly quite a snob and he and Newman ended up virtually as sworn enemies (Talbot later referred to Newman as 'the most dangerous man in England'), but Newman seems to be meeting snobbery with inverse snobbery. 'However, Birmingham people have souls' - as opposed to what? Or is Newman dressing up his aversion to travel as something more principled?

[un barbu]

I'm not quite sure what the quote from Newman is supposed to show. Talbot was clearly quite a snob and he and Newman ended up virtually as sworn enemies (Talbot later referred to Newman as 'the most dangerous man in England'), but Newman seems to be meeting snobbery with inverse snobbery. 'However, Birmingham people have souls' - as opposed to what? Or is Newman dressing up his aversion to travel as something more principled?

Poor old Talbot also ended up in a lunatic asylum. I have been for many years a lapsed Catholic but I would trust Newman's honesty here well before his distaste for foreign travel.

[Miles Coverdale]

... even those who find Gerontius inexcusable, and particularly in its 'musical' garb

I'm afraid I must count myself among them. Its saccharine religiosity just sets my teeth on edge.

[un barbu]

I'm afraid I must count myself among them. Its saccharine religiosity just sets my teeth on edge.

I agree. Give me Hildegard of Bingen any day. Plus Tallis, Victoria and Palestrina.

[DracoM]

[ardcarp]

... even those who find Gerontius inexcusable, and particularly in its 'musical' garb

One has to see things in the context of their time, and a certain religiosity was in the air. Talking of Elgar rather than of Newman himself, his 'Dream' is a masterpiece...OK, maybe a flawed masterpiece...conceived and realised at a vastly higher level than The Kingdom or The Apostles.

[MrGongGong]

One has to see things in the context of their time, and a certain religiosity was in the air. Talking of Elgar rather than of Newman himself, his 'Dream' is a masterpiece...OK, maybe a flawed masterpiece...conceived and realised at a vastly higher level than The Kingdom or The Apostles.

It's utter doggerel verse which is maybe improved a bit by Elgar's undoubted skill as a composer
but it really is a pile of tripe.

What on earth was Elgar thinking when he decided to set this nonsense ?
Every time I walk down Hagley road in search of Dosa's I get a shudder as I pass the plaque on the wall.....