CE St Thomas Church, Fifth Avenue, NYC Wed, 26.vi.2019 [A]

[DracoM]

CE St Thomas Church, Fifth Avenue, NYC Wed, 26.vi.2019 [A]
First broadcast on 24 July 1987


Order of Service:


Introit: I sat down under his shadow (Bairstow)
Responses: Rose
Psalm vv.1-32 (Thalben-Ball)
First Lesson: Isaiah 52: 7-10
Office hymn: Christ is made the sure foundation (Westminster Abbey)
Canticles: Service No 2 in E flat (Wood)
Second Lesson: Revelations 21: 1-4, 9-14
Anthem: Blessed city, heavenly Salem (Bairstow)

Voluntary: Sinfonia (Wir danken dir Gott) (Bach, transc. Dupre)



Judith Hancock (Associate Organist)
Gerre Hancock (Organist and Master of the Choristers)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00066qx

[DracoM]

Reminder: today @ 3.30 p.m.

[mw963]

Very interesting to hear. WHAT a slow tempo for the hymn - a record breaker I'd have thought. Some lovely moments, and one or two rougher ones (both in the singing and one very clumsy registration change in the Wood).

That organ has certainly got some very sharp needly spiky upper work.

I know others won't agree, but loved the prayers, elegant dignified language, beautifully delivered.

[omega consort]

Agreed on the tempo of the hymn. It is always interesting to hear how the odd American pronunciation "slips" through despite what I assume to be a desire to make the singing sound almost "queens English" in style! Re. the organ - it is almost an entirely new instrument these days.

[DracoM]

Definitely NOT the St T's Choir under John Scott! Wobbly intonation, some odd moments in the psalms, and as said above, VERY slow tempi that did the choir no favours at all.

I do hope the BBC has archived one or two of the John Scott CE's. Amazing what a change of impetus and dynamic he gave the ensemble.

[jonfan]

Definitely NOT the St T's Choir under John Scott! Wobbly intonation, some odd moments in the psalms, and as said above, VERY slow tempi that did the choir no favours at all.

I do hope the BBC has archived one or two of the John Scott CE's. Amazing what a change of impetus and dynamic he gave the ensemble.

Agree. This was an embarrassing listen. Any UK collegiate and cathedral choir would be embarrassed if performances like this were kept in the archives let alone broadcast again. Surely their are riches galore of John Scott in NY that would give a better view of the music ministry there, emphasising the tremendous pioneering work JS did to make the choir of St Thomas a force to be reckoned with in the CE stakes.

[DracoM]

My surprise as well. I have flown the flag for St T's for years and this was a real, real disappointment.
As you say, surely there are John Scott archived CEs from there?
And given that St T's webcasts everything, my guess is they must have a few stashed away too.

Oh dear. BUT having heard them in the JS years a lot, those are memories to cling on to.

[Vox Humana]

OK it may not have been up to JS's standard, but it really wasn't that bad. I liked the general balance, blend and tuning. Some ugly vowels, but then I'm English! In that ambience the hymn speed was absolutely fine for me. I had the impression that it would have been difficult to keep it together had it been any faster.

[Y Mab Afradlon]

The beauty of these archive recordings is that we are transported back to what was .... at that time ... the finest choir in the USA singing the Opus Dei.
I am fortunate to be of an age where I was around then and this was the standard achieved. I dare say that if we compared other foundations at that time we'd be surprised at how recording techniques, singing techniques and interpretational aspects such as tempi and dynamics have also evolved. What will thee listener make of the New College Ash Wednesday broadcast of a few years ago if it were rebroadcast in 30 years time? It certainly wasn't reflective of what that choir was able to achieve as the webcasts from that time clearly show.
Recent webcast from St Thomas clearly show that the choir is singing with a great deal more freedom than the term before under the new Organist and Master of the Choristers. I look forward to the coming academic year to see, and hear, the development.

[jonfan]

Perhaps we are being a bit harsh. The ability to retain recordings had undoubtably led to an improvement in standards where performances can be easily analysed. The recording of the 1953 coronation service for example shows appalling ensemble and intonation in the exposed sections, and this from a premiere event when only the best would do. Hearing that led to more rigorous standards?

[Triforium]

I dare say that if we compared other foundations at that time we'd be surprised at how recording techniques, singing techniques and interpretational aspects such as tempi and dynamics have also evolved.

No, still too slow. Nice treble sound, but too slow, and slower than other foundations of the day. Admittedly, there was probable danger working in a localised vacuum.

[mopsus]

Perhaps we are being a bit harsh. The ability to retain recordings had undoubtably led to an improvement in standards where performances can be easily analysed. The recording of the 1953 coronation service for example shows appalling ensemble and intonation in the exposed sections, and this from a premiere event when only the best would do. Hearing that led to more rigorous standards?

Wasn't the choir at the Coronation a combination of several different foundations? In which case I could see that ensemble problems might arise.

As for the hymn, I know from having sung broadcasts that hymns on broadcasts are usually taken faster than they would be in a normal service. It sounds as if this one wasn't. I was a little surprised though that the omitted verse was the Doxology.

[jonfan]

Wasn't the choir at the Coronation a combination of several different foundations? In which case I could see that ensemble problems might arise.

It was just bad all round. John Rutter played the performance of VW’s ‘O taste and see’ from the Coronation service in a fascinating programme some years ago tracing recordings of choirs from the earliest discs to now. It was appalling and sung by a small group so shouldn’t have suffered from ensemble problems. Hearing that was a catalyst which has resulted in today’s ever improving standards.

[Y Mab Afradlon]

It was just bad all round. .

Compared to what we hear today .......

[Vox Humana]

Hearing that was a catalyst which has resulted in today’s ever improving standards.

Was it that? Or was it broadcasting in general, resulting in greater exposure to, and thus keener awareness of, the standards of other choirs?