The Pope and The Lord's Prayer

[ardcarp]

Isn't it strange how certain things, in this secular world [forgive us this day our tautology] get into the news headlines.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/06/led-not-into-temptation-pope-approves-change-to-lords-prayer

As soon as I heard this I immediately thought that some of us must have sung a similar version thousands of times in the Robert Stone setting:
"...and let us not be led into temptacion".

Maybe a liturgical expert could comment on Stone's (and others') version of the text. Pre-dating the BCP as we know it? Whatever, the Pope took a long time to catch up.

Mind you, The Biblia Vulgata, Secundum Mattheum Chapter 6 definitely has, "Et ne nos inducas in tentationem". Couldn't be clearer.

[DracoM]

Catholic Church is no Usain Bolt, eh?

[Serial_Apologist]

Catholic Church is no Usain Bolt, eh?

People in it don't run for office!

[Pabmusic]

Well,here's an Old English (Anglo-Saxon) version from about the year 900.

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum;
Si þin nama gehalgod
to becume þin rice
gewurþe ðin willa
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfele soþlice.

The translation given on one website seems reasonable, and is:

Father our thou that art in heavens
be thy name hallowed
come thy kingdom
be-done thy will
on earth as in heavens
our daily bread give us today
and forgive us our sins
as we forgive those-who-have-sinned-against-us
and not lead thou us into temptation
but deliver us from evil. truly

The relevant part is "and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge". You'll see that it contains "and ne gelæd þu us" - "and do not lead thou us...". "Costnunge" is usually translated "temptation", though it may also mean "tribulation".

[Miles Coverdale]

Isn't it strange how certain things, in this secular world [forgive us this day our tautology] get into the news headlines.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/06/led-not-into-temptation-pope-approves-change-to-lords-prayer

As soon as I heard this I immediately thought that some of us must have sung a similar version thousands of times in the Robert Stone setting:
"...and let us not be led into temptacion".

Maybe a liturgical expert could comment on Stone's (and others') version of the text. Pre-dating the BCP as we know it? Whatever, the Pope took a long time to catch up.

Mind you, The Biblia Vulgata, Secundum Mattheum Chapter 6 definitely has, "Et ne nos inducas in tentationem". Couldn't be clearer.

I've had a very quick look through the various primers and bibles I have from the period. The great majority have ‘And lead us not into temptation’. The only two I found in my far-from-exhaustive search which have ‘And let us not be led into temptation’ are The Manuall of prayers from 1539, and The Primer, set foorth by the kinges majestie of 1545. Tyndale’s New Testament has ‘And lead us not …’, and was probably translated from the original Greek, rather than via the Latin of the Vulgate. Luther’s German text also has this version.

[ardcarp]

..... ‘And let us not be led into temptation’ are The Manuall of prayers from 1539, and The Primer, set foorth by the kinges majestie of 1545.

Thanks MC. Either could be the source for Robert Stone, maybe especially the latter. He was one of the Gentlemen of the Chapel Royal, The Old Cheque Book recording his death in 1613.

[french frank]

It's interesting, if you go back to the Greek, the relevant words are μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

εἰσ-ενέγκῃς (prefix εἰσ meaning into), the verb is φέρω - the same as Latin fero, not duco 'to lead'. And φέρω has a wide range of meanings. εἰσ-φέρω means to carry into or to introduce. In one sense it might mean: Do not allow/suffer us to be brought into temptation, couldn't it? Stop us being tempted not lead us into it.

Also a few chapters on, where Matthew is talking about the blind leading the blind and ending up in a ditch, he uses the verb ὁδηγέω, the usual word for to lead (or guide) - not εἰσφέρω. In the Vulgate duco/(in)duco is used in both cases which is not exactly the same as the Greek. I think 'Lead us not into temptation' is just a translation of the Latin but slightly different from the Greek.

[gurnemanz]

The relevant part is "and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge". You'll see that it contains "and ne gelæd þu us" - "and do not lead thou us...". "Costnunge" is usually translated "temptation", though it may also mean "tribulation".

I was interested in the Anglo-Saxon word "costnung", which seems to have vanished from modern English, displaced by the French-based "temptation", although I read that might be related to "choose". A cognate survives in the modern German verb "kosten" meaning to try, sample or taste and in many derived words, such as "Feinkost", meaning fine food or delicacies.

[Constantbee]

I was interested in the Anglo-Saxon word "costnung", which seems to have vanished from modern English, displaced by the French-based "temptation", although I read that might be related to "choose". A cognate survives in the modern German verb "kosten" meaning to try, sample or taste and in many derived words, such as "Feinkost", meaning fine food or delicacies.

… and here's the same word (very similar anyway) in an Old High German translation of The Lord’s Prayer from about 830AD. The text is Tatian's Gospel Harmony:

…inti ni geleitest unsih in costunga …

The text is from Tatian’s Evangeliumharmonie. Tatian was a second century Christian apologist. The translator was probably Hrabanus Maurus, a C9th Frankish Benedictine monk at the monastery at Fulda. He was probably working from a later Latin translation of the original, which was probably in Greek.