CE Ripon Cathedral 13th July 2011

[ardcarp]

Gabriel Jackson wrote:

It is worth remembering that modern all-male performances of, say, Taverner have no more "authenticity" than performances by mixed-voice groups, save for the gender of the sopranos. The distribution of voice parts among singers in the 16th century was almost certainly different from that distribution today, and, most importantly, we have absolutely no idea what the choir of Cardinal College, Oxford sounded like. And their is nothing "authentic" about modern cathedral choir performances of Byrd's Masses and late(r) Latin music which were, almost certainly, written for performance by ad hoc consorts whose sopranos were women.

All that is certainly true, but performance of any music beyond a time when the living memory of a few generations has expired is bound to be conjectural. It is fact, though, that only blokes sang in church. And if recusants (maybe a few grannies plus the butler and his dog) sang Byrd Masses secretly in the cellar, we can surmaise that Byrd didn't prefer it that way.

I think we can be more sure of the constitution of post-Restoration choirs. We have The Old Cheque-book of the Chapel Royal for instance. Undoubtedly the Victorians and especially the Oxford movement created cathedral choirs as we know them today; but their ideals were surely based on at least notions of a long and treasured tradition. Of course we don't know what they sounded like. The sound of all-male choirs has changed in my life-time so past centuries are another country.

[Gabriel Jackson]

And if recusants (maybe a few grannies plus the butler and his dog) sang Byrd Masses secretly in the cellar, we can surmaise that Byrd didn't prefer it that way..

We can certainly surmise that Byrd would rather his music was performed in different circumstances. But there is nothing particularly different about the vocal writing in these works, which rather gives the lie to the idea that Byrd (in this instance) tailored his vocal writing in the music that was intended for all-male choirs to the unique qualities of boys voices.

The sound of all-male choirs has changed in my life-time so past centuries are another country.

Indeed, which is why it is dangerous to assume that performances by cathedral choirs today in any way reproduce the soundworld the composer (any composer) expected to hear at the time of writing.

[ardcarp]

Every so often on these boards (and on the old BBC boards) a discussion breaks out about the relative merits of boys' versus girls' voices. I have never taken sides...I have daughters and grand-daughters all of whom sing like angels...BUT the one vital point which has to be (has been) made is that boy choristers, not only 'trained' but instilled with a love of singing, are the seed-bed of our future tenors, basses (and altos). In some European countries, kids sing regularly as part of their school curriculum. Alas, this is a rarity over here, at least in my experience of the state sector, so it makes our church, cathedral and collegiate choral tradition all the more necessary.

[DracoM]

Erm, what about the much recorded kidnapping and poaching of singing boys / actors in the 16th century which just might indicate that boys were felt to be valued commodities, their special timbre valued by both choir trainers, impresarios and composers?

I still have awful and very recent memories of the musical deserts that are many famous continental cathedrals - gorgeous shells, no commensurate music, no choirs, just recorded background of 'holy music' as you walk round - all Brit choirs, mostly Anglican Brit choirs at that - how ironic is that?

A chilling warning to us all.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Erm, what about the much recorded kidnapping and poaching of singing boys / actors in the 16th century which just might indicate that boys were felt to be valued commodities, their special timbre valued by both choir trainers, impresarios and composers?

Individual boys were felt to be valued commodities, yes, for their particular talents and attributes, not for their gender.

[DracoM]

Erm....Sorry - I don't follow that, GJ.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Erm....Sorry - I don't follow that, GJ.

In a society where only boys and men sang in liturgical choirs, individual boys might be particualrly sought-after for their musical ability (and particular vocal quality) but not sought-after because they were thought preferable to (individual) girls or adult women, as having the latter sing in one's choir was not an option.

[DracoM]

Thanks.