CE Winchester Cathedral 23.i.19 [L]

[Roger Judd]

Teamsaint, hi ... certainly when I was a chorister (1954–58) cassocks were purple. I think the colour changed with the arrival of Martin Neary (c.1972), and I also think that there was a bit of a hoo-ha, because Winchester's new colour was supposed to be the preserve of the Royal Peculiar at Westminster Abbey. Perhaps it was no coincidence that both Organist and Dean had been at St Margaret's Westminster previously! I may, of course, have got that completely wrong!

Wolsey ... you are totally right about the present cathedral organ. Harrison's rebuild in 1988 revitalised it dramatically. I played a recital there last August, and it is exciting, fiery and full of all the colour you could possibly want. The only problem area, which one day may be addressed, is how to get more sound into the enormously long nave - the present 'solution' doesn't really work too well.
RJ

[jonfan]

Does anyone else get irked by the Trivago-like PR puff at the start of almost every CE?

Not really. Places of worship are rightly proud of their heritage and CE a good opportunity to remind listeners or excite new ones.
What’s most annoying is being reminded after every programme what station I’m listening to.

[teamsaint]

Teamsaint, hi ... certainly when I was a chorister (1954–58) cassocks were purple. I think the colour changed with the arrival of Martin Neary (c.1972), and I also think that there was a bit of a hoo-ha, because Winchester's new colour was supposed to be the preserve of the Royal Peculiar at Westminster Abbey. Perhaps it was no coincidence that both Organist and Dean had been at St Margaret's Westminster previously! I may, of course, have got that completely wrong!

Wolsey ... you are totally right about the present cathedral organ. Harrison's rebuild in 1988 revitalised it dramatically. I played a recital there last August, and it is exciting, fiery and full of all the colour you could possibly want. The only problem area, which one day may be addressed, is how to get more sound into the enormously long nave - the present 'solution' doesn't really work too well.
RJ

Thanks for that Rog, I was hoping my memory was holding up ! I don't remember Winchester changing during my time at Salisbury, ( 69-75) as I think I would remember them changing to a similar colour to Chichester. I would have guessed it was a few years after Martin Neary's appointment.
I have no idea why Salisbury changed to green, incidentally.. I always assumed it was to look different to Winchester, but that is probably a wrong assumption.

I Also had no idea about the scarlet- red thing having a royal restriction until yesterday .....

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2010/26-november/features/features/out-of-the-question-peculiar-colour-of-cassocks

[oddoneout]

There is also the unpleasant stereotype referenced in Judas' betrayal of Jesus out of 'covetousness'.

I cannot comment on use of the words by other composers, discussed above, but I note in my copy of the Oxford Book of Carols that the verses are split into 3 sections, with Part2 labelled 'Lent: Passiontide, and Part 3 Passiontide: Easter:Ascension. Omitting Part 2 avoids the problem, but in any case it is the first 4 verses that are most often used I think?

[Wolsey]

I Also had no idea about the scarlet- red thing having a royal restriction until yesterday .....
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articl...ur-of-cassocks

The late Charles Cleall is almost correct in his response shown in the link above. A search of the online Church Times archives for 1982-3 shows that it is the Queen herself who, in the late 1970s/early 1980s, noticed that the dean and chapter of a cathedral she was visiting were clothed in scarlet, and afterwards wished to know why - as they did not have her permission to wear cassocks of the colour of the royal livery. This resulted in the attempt of the then Lord Chamberlain and Clerk of the Closet to rectify the situation and, following investigation and consultation, letters were sent to diocesan bishops, cathedrals and clerical suppliers. At the time, four cathedrals were found to be offenders - Winchester included. Two of the four cathedrals put up active resistance, believing they had a historical right to do so after consulting their historical records. Unmoved, and presumably unamused, the Queen told them crisply - via the Lord Chamberlain, that neither she nor any previous sovereign had ever given them permission to wear scarlet and that she had no intention of doing so. The situation was resolved, however, by the Queen herself making the four cathedrals an offer: she met the cost of new, non-scarlet cassocks for their deans and chapters, and others in the cathedrals who wore scarlet cassocks had to replace them with different colours only when the 'unauthorised' robes wore out. Incidentally, another colour which cathedrals and churches may not use is murrey, a colour reserved (pace Roger Judd) by tradition exclusively for officiants at St. George’s Chapel, Windsor.

[terratogen]

On a related note: are the girl choristers at Winchester still without surplices?

[Finzi4ever]

The late Charles Cleall is almost correct in his response shown in the link above. A search of the online Church Times archives for 1982-3 shows that it is the Queen herself who, in the late 1970s/early 1980s, noticed that the dean and chapter of a cathedral she was visiting were clothed in scarlet, and afterwards wished to know why - as they did not have her permission to wear cassocks of the colour of the royal livery. This resulted in the attempt of the then Lord Chamberlain and Clerk of the Closet to rectify the situation and, following investigation and consultation, letters were sent to diocesan bishops, cathedrals and clerical suppliers. At the time, four cathedrals were found to be offenders - Winchester included. Two of the four cathedrals put up active resistance, believing they had a historical right to do so after consulting their historical records.

Ely, I seem to recall, was one of those two, or cert. four, claiming precedence (apocryphal surely?) to do with Edward the Confessor being educated there by the monks - and they are still in scarlet to my very limited knowledge.

[Lizzie]

On a related note: are the girl choristers at Winchester still without surplices?

Yes, that’s correct.

[Wolsey]

Ely, I seem to recall, was one of those two, or cert. four, claiming precedence [...]

It wasn't. According to the Church Times, Leicester and Winchester bowed to the royal command, but Ripon and Exeter resisted.

[Finzi4ever]

It wasn't. According to the Church Times, Leicester and Winchester bowed to the royal command, but Ripon and Exeter resisted.

Ely still wear scarlet...

[Nick Armstrong]

I do hope you enjoyed the offering from Winchester Cathedral.

Heard today for the first time. Absolutely wonderful

[Lizzie]

Heard today for the first time. Absolutely wonderful

So pleased you enjoyed it. They’re flying at present.