Boy and Girl Choristers R4 Today

[Vox Humana]

A thoughtful contribution to the subject.

https://jessicamusic.blogspot.com/2018/12/smash-all-male-choirs-choral-expert.html

[Nick Armstrong]

A thoughtful contribution to the subject.
https://jessicamusic.blogspot.com/20...al-expert.html

[doversoul1]

[...]
And [Guy] Johnston said he is grateful for his time in the boys-only choir. It allowed him to use his voice “without self-consciousness about singing high”, he thinks.
[…]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/09/kings-college-choirmaster-leaving-100th-christmas-concert

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A thoughtful contribution to the subject.
https://jessicamusic.blogspot.com/20...al-expert.html

I am astonished to read the comments Research has shown that boys sing better in an all-male environment, in which it is totally normal to love singing, and do it every day. I fear that if we were to mix the treble line, the boys would lose confidence.

Choral conductor Suzi Digby did an experiment several years ago, creating two parallel after-school classes. One was mixed with 12 girls and 12 boys, and the other was all boys. At the end of two years, both groups had grown to have over 40 singers, and yet there were only two boys left in the mixed class. It’s not a huge step from boys losing confidence to giving up entirely.

Part of the sheer joy of joining the mixed school choir when I was 11 was being sat amongst the girls from the Fifth and Sixth Form, and the opportunity not only to work with them and learn from them, but also to chat with them socially, and listen their conversations (I was only eleven - I wasn't a "threat", and didn't inhibit their chatting). When my voice broke, and I moved over to the basses, rehearsals weren't nearly as much fun.

Obviously such individual anecdotal comments don't contradict the wider findings of the research mentioned - and I'm not making any comment on the Kings College tradition - but I am bewildered to hear that most boys find singing with girls detrimental to their confidence.

[DracoM]

<< Research has shown that boys sing better in an all-male environment, in which it is totally normal to love singing, and do it every day. I fear that if we were to mix the treble line, the boys would lose confidence.

Choral conductor Suzi Digby did an experiment several years ago, creating two parallel after-school classes. One was mixed with 12 girls and 12 boys, and the other was all boys. At the end of two years, both groups had grown to have over 40 singers, and yet there were only two boys left in the mixed class. It’s not a huge step from boys losing confidence to giving up entirely. >>


Which is pretty well precisely what ardcarp and I were saying upthread.

[french frank]

<< Research has shown that boys sing better in an all-male environment, in which it is totally normal to love singing, and do it every day. I fear that if we were to mix the treble line, the boys would lose confidence.

Choral conductor Suzi Digby did an experiment several years ago, creating two parallel after-school classes. One was mixed with 12 girls and 12 boys, and the other was all boys. At the end of two years, both groups had grown to have over 40 singers, and yet there were only two boys left in the mixed class. It’s not a huge step from boys losing confidence to giving up entirely. >>

Which is pretty well precisely what ardcarp and I were saying upthread.

It shows that boys have a problem. It doesn't follow that the best/only solution is to segregate them from the girls, does it? I have sympathy with the two competing (as they are) priorities. But I have a problem with a millennium-old tradition where men have well understood (and experienced) the needs of boys, but the needs of girls have seldom even been worth considering, still less being understood. That (in my view) is exactly why we're where we are today where 'boys' problems' must be prioritised and girls must fit in. As the research abstract says: "Boys are troublesome, girls are compliant,"

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Which is pretty well precisely what ardcarp and I were saying upthread.

Yes - I was equally astonished then.

[DracoM]

But, FF. it IS an unassailable, biological fact that boys voices shift/ drop/change in as dramatic a way as possible - hence it IS indeed 'a male problem'.

Whereas girls do not have anything like the same drama. So much of what happens to a boy in/through /post that change is unavoidably disturbing and in some senses socially, musically, psychologically disempowering, such that while it is true that most girls can pretty well cope with singing through whatever adolescence does to them, boys actually physically CANNOT beyon an uncertain juggling croak, and most simply do not sing past their 'break' for years to come - if ever.

So, yes, it IS a male problem, but one that can be helped if boys are kept singing with other boys - yeah, yeah, all men together stuff. The loss of status and identity a boy feels in the break singing in a mixed choir is often hard to bear. and one that unless we create the right team spirit, boys stop simply singing.

A chorister at St Paul's once told me that when his voice-change took place, even though he knew he would re-find a voice, nevertheless while it happened he felt as if someone had cut off his right hand. He dared not talk much in public, and certainly could not properly sing for a good eighteen months. He said he felt 'other' and lost.

[french frank]

But, FF. it IS an unassailable, biological fact that boys voices shift/ drop/change in as dramatic a way as possible - hence it IS indeed 'a male problem'.

Undeniable - but that is the physical 'problem' (or advantage!). I was focusing on a separate psychological problem illustrated by the anecdotal evidence. I'm trying to see both sides of the problem, which is a trickier stance that taking up the cudgels for one side or the other, especially men siding with boys and women siding with girls. You use terms like 'unavoidable', 'boys stop simply singing'. That seems to me to be an aspect worth thinking about. You seem to isolate, understandably in this context, the musical aspect from everything else. I merely propose the suggestion that placing it in a wider context might offer a solution that was good for boys, girls and music.

It's just a lot more difficult than doing things the same way as they've always been done because 'that works for boys'.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The onus, perhaps, lies on the broadcasters? There are dozens of these, so there is no reason why there shouldn't be alternative (or, more positively, additional) broadcasts of such services/events from all-female and mixed choirs. Rather than demanding a change in a "product" that many people find deeply satisfying, the demand should be for platforms showcasing what other* listeners want. It should be used as an opportunity, not a threat - it's just the limited imagination of broadcasters that's causing the problem.

(* - as well as, I wouldn't be surprised, some of the audience who love the all-male event.)

[DracoM]

No, it is NOT just a musical problem: as I tried to indicate that for boys, the voice change can be socially and psychologically disturbing as well.

IME MANY boys do not trust their voice enough to talk in class publicly in case the voice cracks - hence loss of some valuable social and academic profile, serious giggles and nudges from behind them as they croak - they can shout on the games field and swear like troopers, oh yes, but careful chat in public is a risk-take, and as for asking them to sing, audition for plays ............... Schools often find they have to wean them carefully back into the expressive arts fold. Instrumentalists say playing an instrument was a lifeline over the break because that kept them singing inside their heads.

Boy-led choirs are precious, and different. Mixed choirs are precious and different too.


Sigh......so.....well, try this.................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvjCpihaQJE

[MrGongGong]

Isn't this really about visibility ?
Those folks already involved in a music can often miss the point about how others might feel that it is something they could get involved in.
If the only time choral singing appears on the TV is KCC at Christmas and there are never any girls appearing then those girls (who are 50% of the population) who might feel that this is something would like to do will simply see that it's not for them.
I've had to argue for equity far too many times in the last few years in other musical contexts.
If there is never "someone like me" doing something I might like to do then I won't think it is for me.
The arguments against (and in my experience they have mostly to do with the visibility of women composers) are usually along the lines of "I thought we were championing quality" or "I'm against tokenism" etc etc which all really boil down to those in positions of power want to hold onto their own privilege and have nothing to do with "quality" or even sonic "uniqueness".

Given that THIS broadcast is often the only place anyone not involved will see this type of musicking then it really is quite simple to solve it. Which doesn't mean fewer boys sing or even the abolition of single sex choirs.

[french frank]

No, it is NOT just a musical problem: as I tried to indicate that for boys, the voice change can be socially and psychologically disturbing as well.

But the voice change, in this instance, is about music, singing. For the rest, do you imagine that girls in their young teenage years don't have difficulties too?

Schools often find they have to wean them carefully back into the expressive arts fold.

Which is precisely what they must do, given that they're aware of the problem. (There isn't a lot of reward in trying to shift a one-sided argument towards an even-handed one.)

[W.Kearns]

(There isn't a lot of reward in trying to shift a one-sided argument towards an even-handed one.)

But thank you all the same, French Frank, for your gallant attempts.

[Bella Kemp]

Boys-only choirs produce a beautiful sound and let's hope they continue.