Boy and Girl Choristers R4 Today

[MrGongGong]

Well, well. I didn't realise that Vivaldi had been trained in an English cathedral choir. Please do quote your sources for this most enthralling and enlightening information.

It is "traditional" for people (that includes both boys and girls) to sing at Christmas

I really did think your post was satire

[ardcarp]

I hesitated to start this thread because in the past the subject has caused some aggro.
I think most will agree that boys and girls should have equal chances to sing, and I salute all those cathedrals which now run a boys' and a girls' treble section, and in many cases divvy up the services (along with the lay clerks) equally between the two. Most decide to keep the boys and girls separate, maybe combining them for special occasions (such as carol services). There are reasons for this which I think are as much developmental as anything to do with the sound they make...though some may disagree with me here. There is an esprit de coeur in any sort of team activity, and I think that esprit may be of a different nature between girls aged 8 - 13 and boys aged 8 - 13. At a school and parish level there are undeniably societal issues which make it uncool for boys to sing unless there is a critical mass of them doing so.

The point David Hill just had time to make was that singing boys are a fairly important source of our future T+B not to mention A.

In case anyone thinks I have any sort of bias in this matter, I am the proud father of three daughters, all of whom were choristers, one of whom becoming an Oxbridge choral scholar. And I have very tuneful grand-daughters too!

[Vox Humana]

It is "traditional" for people (that includes both boys and girls) to sing at Christmas

And where did I say it wasn't? Try reading my original post again - this time without imposing your own agenda. You really have missed my point entirely, haven't you?

[MrGongGong]

And where did I say it wasn't? Try reading my original post again - this time without imposing your own agenda. You really have missed my point entirely, haven't you?

You said that "good slice of traditional Christmas sung by a traditional church choir, which, like it or not (and I appreciate the egalitarians won't), means boys. "

and went to to talk about "eroding" tradition
maybe there are a few "traditions" that could do with a bit more erosion ?

Given that KCC is one of the main BBC gigs at Christmas then having women participating as singers would be a positive step ?

[Vox Humana]

maybe there are a few "traditions" that could do with a bit more erosion ?

Given that KCC is one of the main BBC gigs at Christmas then having women participating as singers would be a positive step ?

Oh, for goodness' sake stop trying to get me to mount your hobby horse. I really wouldn't have expected to have to explain that, traditionally, cathedral-style choirs were always all-male - and I think it was pretty obvious from the subject of my post that this was the type of choir I had in mind. I happen to value such choirs in the cathedral tradition, just as I enjoy the sound of a good female top line. You are entitled to your opinion. I was merely expressing mine - to which, it seems I must stress, I am just as entitled.

[MrGongGong]

Oh, for goodness' sake stop trying to get me to mount your hobby horse. I really wouldn't have expected to have to explain that, traditionally, cathedral-style choirs were always all-male - and I think it was pretty obvious from the subject of my post that this was the type of choir I had in mind. I happen to value such choirs in the cathedral tradition, just as I enjoy the sound of a good female top line. You are entitled to your opinion. I was merely expressing mine - to which, it seems I must stress, I am just as entitled.

You don't have to explain anything of the sort, i've done enough work with them to know about it.
BUT to claim (as David Hill did on R4) that having girls singing at the one event that gives this music visibility would somehow discourage boys is simply wrong.
Everytime a woman gets commissioned to write a piece of music doesn't mean one less for those of us who aren't women composers.... "It's not cake"
It's not a "hobby horse" at all.

[Vox Humana]

You don't have to explain anything of the sort, i've done enough work with them to know about it.
BUT to claim (as David Hill did on R4) that having girls singing at the one event that gives this music visibility would somehow discourage boys is simply wrong.
Everytime a woman gets commissioned to write a piece of music doesn't mean one less for those of us who aren't women composers.... "It's not cake"
It's not a "hobby horse" at all.

Well, all that's a matter for others and not something on which I expressed an opinion.

[DracoM]

<< I hesitated to start this thread because in the past the subject has caused some aggro.
I think most will agree that boys and girls should have equal chances to sing, and I salute all those cathedrals which now run a boys' and a girls' treble section, and in many cases divvy up the services (along with the lay clerks) equally between the two. Most decide to keep the boys and girls separate, maybe combining them for special occasions (such as carol services). There are reasons for this which I think are as much developmental as anything to do with the sound they make...though some may disagree with me here. There is an esprit de coeur in any sort of team activity, and I think that esprit may be of a different nature between girls aged 8 - 13 and boys aged 8 - 13. At a school and parish level there are undeniably societal issues which make it uncool for boys to sing unless there is a critical mass of them doing so. >>

Precisely. Developmental issues both vocally and socially lie at the very core of this. With ardcarp 100%

[Stanfordian]

There was a very short and wholly inadequate discussion of the boy/girl chorister thing on Radio 4's Today programme:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0001g8m

...about 2hrs 41 mins from start. David Hill was responding to a comment by Lesley Garrett:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-46472280

I cannot agree with the Doncaster Diva - the sound of the boy treble is something to cherish.

[MrGongGong]

Well, all that's a matter for others and not something on which I expressed an opinion.

Wriggle wriggle wriggle

[Vox Humana]

Wriggle wriggle wriggle

Explain, please.

[MrGongGong]

Explain, please.

You expressed very strong opinions
which is fine

[Vox Humana]

You expressed very strong opinions
which is fine

That's not an explanation. Please explain. Why do you consider that I am wriggling? I'm genuinely puzzled.

[MrGongGong]

That's not an explanation. Please explain. Why do you consider that I am wriggling? I'm genuinely puzzled.

I think the visibility and equality of all those involved in music IS a matter for all of us who are involved in music.
Making a series of statements in support of something that visibily disadvantages half the population and using "tradition" as a justification is wriggling around what is a significant issue for some people who are involved in music.
To those who aren't involved in this music (which includes me, most of the time) the KCC broadcast IS the most significant event in the year for this music and to exclude half (or just under according to UK demographic statistics) of the potential particiapants on the grounds of "tradition" is a weak argument IMV (hence the image)

[Vox Humana]

I think the visibility and equality of all those involved in music IS a matter for all of us who are involved in music.
Making a series of statements in support of something that visibily disadvantages half the population and using "tradition" as a justification is wriggling around what is a significant issue for some people who are involved in music.
To those who aren't involved in this music (which includes me, most of the time) the KCC broadcast IS the most significant event in the year for this music and to exclude half (or just under according to UK demographic statistics) of the potential particiapants on the grounds of "tradition" is a weak argument IMV (hence the image)

All I did was to explain that King’s reflects the traditional English cathedral-type, all-male choir, suggested that most people tuning in probably valued it precisely for that reason (a pure and possibly inaccurate guess, I grant you) and added that this was also my personal preference. I did not express an opinion as to whether it would be right or wrong for King’s to instigate a girls’ or mixed top line, although, if you are going to modernise the format of the carol service, I still wonder where, and what decides where, you should stop. I further suggested (and so did Nevilevelis) that, if it is desired to showcase the service with a girls’ top line, the BBC could take the service to an insitution that has such a choir.

That’s not wriggling; that's a straight, head-down-charging-bull opinion - but it still didn't merit your ad hominem attack.