Stanford's Mass Via Victrix

[mopsus]

There seems to be quite a lot of Stanford that is only emerging decades after his death. Most of it, like the canticles in E flat heard recently on CE from Chester, is early, but tonight on Radio 3 there is the first complete performance of his entire 'Via Victrix' Mass, performed by the BBC National Orchestra of Wales and its chorus, conducted by Adrian Partington. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000114z

[Ein Heldenleben]

I very much enjoyed that performance and simply couldn't understand why it's had to wait so long for a performance . This article gives some background into the reasons why :-

https://www.theepochtimes.com/sir-charles-villiers-stanfords-mass-via-victrix-1914-1918-premieres-after-99-years_2701158.html

[ardcarp]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention mopsus. I'd missed it and will catch up. A Stanford work that is quite well-known but not at all what you'd expect from his pen is the Double Choir Latin Magnificat...very Bachian in its influence.

[mopsus]

Yes, I've done the Latin Magnificat - quite hard work and you have to get special permission to do it liturgically as it's so long!

There's another article, including an interview with Adrian Partington about the Mass, here: http://seenandheard-international.co...99-years-late/ It's very much a concert piece, and I think a Mass in that sort of style was just out of fashion, even as a concert work, by the time he wrote it. And his health began to fail so he couldn't really promote it himself in the few years before his death.

[DracoM]

Yes, some interesting moments but, honestly, I think it needed editing.

[ardcarp]

Yes, some interesting moments but, honestly, I think it needed editing.

I think Jeremy Dibble had done quite a lot. Maybe you mean pruning?

[Pulcinella]

I admit to doing my own editing by switching off before the end.
And my attention must have drifted long before then: I certainly didn't spot a Crucifixus of the calibre heralded in the interval talk.

[Vox Humana]

Thanks for the heads up about this. The mass was well worth hearing and certainly deserves the occasional outing. I have some sympathy with Draco. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but it did strike me as more routinely competent than arresting and compelling. Am I imagining it or did CVS rely just a little too much on sequences?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I admit to doing my own editing by switching off before the end.
And my attention must have drifted long before then: I certainly didn't spot a Crucifixus of the calibre heralded in the interval talk.

I only heard the final quarter-hour or so. The Music struck me rather as it has others - some interesting moments, and nothing "bad" in the composition at all. It might grow more attractive if I were to hear it again, but ... the sounds produced by the soloists (the men at "Dona Nobis Pacem"; the Tarzanesque vibrato and insecure intonation from all of them) will ensure that I sha'n't be bothering the i-Player to re-listen to this broadcast.

[mopsus]

I can't see it getting very many performances. It's too long for liturgical use (even with organ) and these days not many orchestral Mass settings get done in concert, apart from some very famous ones. (For example, in many years of choral singing the only large-scale Mass by Haydn that I've done is the Nelson Mass, and this isn't in that league.)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I can't see it getting very many performances. It's too long for liturgical use (even with organ) and these days not many orchestral Mass settings get done in concert, apart from some very famous ones. (For example, in many years of choral singing the only large-scale Mass by Haydn that I've done is the Nelson Mass, and this isn't in that league.)

- I'm not exactly desolate at the prospect of never hearing the Via Victrix again.

(By coincidence, the Nelson is the only one of Haydn's glorious Masses that I've ever sung in, too - and I've done it twice: it was my first ever experience of singing a Classical choral work [I was an eleven-year-old treble at the time] - and the second time nine years later amongst the Basses. I feel a new Thread coming on!)

[oddoneout]

I only heard the final quarter-hour or so. The Music struck me rather as it has others - some interesting moments, and nothing "bad" in the composition at all. It might grow more attractive if I were to hear it again, but ... the sounds produced by the soloists (the men at "Dona Nobis Pacem"; the Tarzanesque vibrato and insecure intonation from all of them) will ensure that I sha'n't be bothering the i-Player to re-listen to this broadcast.

I listened all through and found myself wishing I could remove the solo lines and just listen to the chorus parts. Whatever the merits(or otherwise) of the piece it was not well served by soloists who(to my ears) didn't always seem too inclined to sing what was written in the score, nor seem as secure in their technique as one could have wished. There could be several reasons(youth, inexperience, big occasion nerves etc)but it was unfortunate nonetheless.
It's one of those pieces where I say -'I'm glad I made the effort to listen, but I probably won't do so again' . The overall impression for me was of something CVS felt he needed to write for himself rather than with performance necessarily in mind, but I didn't listen to the interval talk so I could very well be completely wrong on that.

[Vox Humana]

I can't see it getting very many performances.

If you wanted to mount a performance how easy would it be to get your hands on what I assume is the sole set of orchestral parts in existence? Just curious: I don't know how these things work.

[ardcarp]

I'm not exactly desolate at the prospect of never hearing the Via Victrix again.

(By coincidence, the Nelson is the only one of Haydn's glorious Masses that I've ever sung in, too - and I've done it twice: it was my first ever experience of singing a Classical choral work [I was an eleven-year-old treble at the time] - and the second time nine years later amongst the Basses. I feel a new Thread coming on!)

Indeed Ferney, don't quite see the Nelson Mass connection! (Tho' it is IMVHO the best of Haydn's Masses.)

Back to Stanford. It was a worthy venture to be bring it to life, and I'm sure to have been at the performance 'live' would have been fun. I too shall not be making any efforts to hear it again! It really isn't special enough. Nothing seemed to cohere structurally, and though Stanford wandered into interesting keys at times, I was never quite sure where he was going. The orchestration seemed that of an organist, with passages for 'brass choir', 'woodwind choir', etc. with a lot of use of solo horn plus string accomp. Such a shame that at the words "et vitam venturi" I felt a fugue coming on...which never happened. The most original feature (as someone mentioned in the interviews) was the March in the middle of the Agnus Dei. I almost expected The Lord High Executioner to make an appearance. Shame the orchestra got a bit out of step with itself at one point. Surely not difficult to keep together in a march?

Stanford isn't, I suppose, a 'great' composer, whatever that may be, so perhaps we shouldn't expect too much. I guess he'll continue to be remembered for his small-scale gems...The Bluebird, Stanford in G Mag, some of the songs, etc.

Interesting to hear what Pabs might have made of it and of Stanford's larger scale and much-neglected oeuvres?

[mopsus]

Indeed Ferney, don't quite see the Nelson Mass connection! (Tho' it is IMVHO the best of Haydn's Masses.)

I’ll spell it out a bit more. Haydn’s orchestral Masses, which I think we agree are better than this one, don’t get performed in concerts, so the Via Victrix is even less likely to be programmed (and it really is a concert piece, not a liturgical one). Perhaps it will be trotted out occasionally like Stanford’s symphonies (which I don’t know).