CE Lichfield Cathedral 6th July 2011

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I



VCC Norwich have a specialist voice trainer not a choral conductor.

Fair enough, but David Lowe has been in charge there for some time and I would have expected a broadcast by now. I presume he knows what he's doing or perhaps he's found that training boys is not quite as easy as training the organ scholars of St John's which should have been obvious from the start to anyone considering the appointment? Has anyone heard Norwich recently? They used to be a major outfit in the the league of cathedral choirs but have not broadcast CE for years.

Despite the controversy about Ben Lamb's appointment I was re-assured, as I wrote at the time on the BBC message board, by the fact that he had experience with a choir of men and boys at St Peter's, Bournemouth which by all accounts was pretty good and that his appointment was less of a gamble than that of Andrew Carwood at St Paul's who had none. I think that has been shown today.

Decantor,

I know Robert Sharpe broadcast York choir in his first year and again I remarked about the fact at the time on the old board. Another DoM with proven experience.

Frankly, it should be expected that any any competent newly appointed cathedral/college DoM will be able to produce a choir of boys and men good enough to broadcast CE certainly within 18 months of appointment if not a year and regularly thereafter. If they can't do this I think there are questions to be asked; and it's not acceptable to say that it is difficult to recruit boys because they know that when they apply for these jobs and should be able to overcome the problems otherwise why seek the appointment in the first place.

VCC

VCC.

[decantor]

VCC, a close acquaintance of mine - one mightily experienced in cathedral choirs - regularly attends, and reports on, evensong at Norwich. He appears to be well pleased by what he hears, especially the psalmody. I very much doubt that Norwich's non-appearance on CE in the last six years (at least) is any reflection on their standards or the unconventional arrangements in the music department.

I made my comment about RS at York for info only: I apologise that your comments on the old BBC boards slipped my mind. In the main, you are no doubt right that a new DoM should be prepared to broadcast early in his/her reign - few of them inherit a broken vessel (Sarah Baldock was not slow in coming forward). But surely no DoM or D&C is actually obliged to display their wares on the airwaves: there will be many considerations to be taken into account - for example, a 4.00pm Wednesday evensong may be logistically unviable. Should we not simply be grateful for what we have, rather than speculate about the absentees?

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Of course, they are not obliged to broadcast but I should think that most regular listeners to CE would expect to hear the major cathedral/college choirs reasonably often; and I can't imagine a DoM with a good choir not wanting to show it off nationally.There is always the opportunity of a recorded service.

VCC

[gainasbass]

I couldn't agree more with your comments, ardcarp. As a schoolboy I used to dash home on Wednesdays and up to my bedroom where I had an old radio (before the days of VHF) when I would listen to CE. I have never forgotten a broadcast from Lichfield in RG's day when one of the set psalms for the day "Lord, I am not high minded; I have no proud looks" was sung, not,to to an Anglican Chant (as we know it), to a Lutheran type recurring theme (but with speech rhythm. If you or any other old Lichfordian can throw light on this, it would solve something which has been buggung me for half a century or more!

[DracoM]

I wonder if it has occurred to VCC that there are only so many Wednessdays and special days in the year on which the BBC can juggle cathedral foundation slots?

e.g. take out Christmas Eve [ KCC apparently as if by right] and Ash Wednesday [ mostly but not exclusively St J's], long school / college vacation times at Easter / Summer, longer half terms for schools, the CE schedule can only accommodate a relatively small number of foundations with broadcastable choirs.

Ds &Cs, as decantor rightly says, are under no obligation to queue up for R3 CE and we all know of some who are averse to such exposure for a wide variety of reasons. Added to which, there are bound to be those DoMs who might find that year after year, their slot comes round at preciely the time when their schedule coincides with waves of sickness to decimate the troops, or their slot is in late-ish summer term, when two or three of their top trebs's voices have gone, hence no other real leaders for possibly complex stuff. They cannot get an earlier berth because 'the big boys' by and large bag slots when voices are likely to be in their prime, and suddenly R3 CE can become an occasion of some trepidation rather than fulfilment and good PR.

On the old boards I think I can recall reports of one DoM who found he had on an October Tuesday morning session befroe the scheduled CE tx a mere 8 trebles + three probationers standing and Howells [I]St Paul's / and a Purcell verse anthem on the programme. You can imagine the sense of despair and thus unwillingness to repeat the experience. You can also just begin to see why some DoMs might welcome girls into the choirs so that voice change is less of an issue.

There are 'new kids on the block' to be accommodated too. I do nopt know the Norwich situation at all, but the reasons for their absence may be many, varied and completely legit. I wouldn't be the CE Chief Producer for all the tea in China, You get reports that a choir is on the up, you get your mystery shoppers to report, you schedule them, you listen to them on the day and wonder why on earth you picked them: two or so years ago, they were in good fettle, but you catch them in a lean year and the muttering starts.

[LJB]

Just to be clear, David Lowe has a little more to his CV than training John's organ scholars( which to my knowledge, he doesn't). He has for some time and continues to train the choristers at John's, in addition he still has several very distinguished singing students. He is an expert choral conductor having been D of M to several groups including the Oxford Bach Choir and Cambridge University Chamber Choir.

[richardshakeshaft]

I have never forgotten a broadcast from Lichfield in RG's day when one of the set psalms for the day "Lord, I am not high minded; I have no proud looks" was sung, not,to to an Anglican Chant (as we know it), to a Lutheran type recurring theme (but with speech rhythm. If you or any other old Lichfordian can throw light on this, it would solve something which has been buggung me for half a century or more!

I believe the list of broadcasts from Lichfield at http://www.cathedralchoir.org.uk/broadcasts.php is pretty complete and I cannot see anywhere during RG's reign (1959-1977) when Psalm 131 was broadcast.

Is there any chance you could reduce the range of years so I could endeavour to explore the music lists in case there's something missing from the list?

[egg counter]

Just to be clear, David Lowe has a little more to his CV than training John's organ scholars( which to my knowledge, he doesn't). He has for some time and continues to train the choristers at John's, in addition he still has several very distinguished singing students. He is an expert choral conductor having been D of M to several groups including the Oxford Bach Choir and Cambridge University Chamber Choir.

I can inform you that David Lowe has decided to resign his post at Norwich with effect from sept 1 and will be joining the RNCoM as professorial staff.

EG

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LJB

Sorry, I meant choral scholars. Again apparently very little, if any, experience in running a choir of boys and men before his appointment to Norwich.

As I have said so many times before on the old board and this one, boys' choirs are a specialism that someone who is primarily a fine singer or even a voice trainer is not necessarily equipped to pull off. It is the same in other fields e.g. football where great players such as Bobby Charlton and similar have been absolutely useless as managers of a team.

I just don't understand why cathedrals/colleges don't make appointments solely on the basis of proven experience. It just doesn't make sense to me as it is what happens for managerial roles in any other trade or profession.

He's been in charge of the choir at Norwich for four years only. What's the point?

VCC

[Troublebob]

The organ is was built, and is still tuned to, Philharmonic pitch (where middle C=540 hertz);

(Surely they don't mean MIDDLE C? Concert pitch is A (above middle C) at 440 Hz, so a middle C of 540 Hz would be incredibly high.)

Anyway, it's really pleasing to read such compliments about the excellent Lichfield Cathedral. Wish I'd been there.

[Miles Coverdale]

(Surely they don't mean MIDDLE C? Concert pitch is A (above middle C) at 440 Hz, so a middle C of 540 Hz would be incredibly high.)

No, they mean an octave above middle C which, at A=440 Hz, is 523.3 Hz. C=540 Hz is just over a quarter of a tone sharp relative to A=440.

[ardcarp]

....when one of the set psalms for the day "Lord, I am not high minded; I have no proud looks" was sung, not,to to an Anglican Chant (as we know it), to a Lutheran type recurring theme (but with speech rhythm)

Would this have been during Lent by any chance?

[Simon]

Added to which, there are bound to be those DoMs who might find that year after year, their slot comes round at preciely the time when their schedule coincides with waves of sickness to decimate the troops, or their slot is in late-ish summer term, when two or three of their top trebs's voices have gone, hence no other real leaders for possibly complex stuff. They cannot get an earlier berth because 'the big boys' by and large bag slots when voices are likely to be in their prime, and suddenly R3 CE can become an occasion of some trepidation rather than fulfilment and good PR.

I don't know where you are getting - or making up - some of your comments from Draco. (Or questions, as they so often are formed as.) And I'm not alone in wondering that, especially after your recent glaring lack of knowledge about the psalms. Were you ever a cathedral chorister, one wonders?

But irrespective of that, the above-quoted comment is, if I may say so, tripe.

bws S-S!

[DracoM]

Welcome back, simon.

[gainasbass]

I believe the list of broadcasts from Lichfield at http://www.cathedralchoir.org.uk/broadcasts.php is pretty complete and I cannot see anywhere during RG's reign (1959-1977) when Psalm 131 was broadcast.

Is there any chance you could reduce the range of years so I could endeavour to explore the music lists in case there's something missing from the list?

Thanks for your very helpful reply. I must have been under a misapprehension re RG. If I am correct in my memory of Lichfield's rendition of Ps 131, it must have been around 1956/1957. Who was RG's predecessor at Lichfield?

If I am wrong about Lichfield, the broadcast could have been from Worcester. Didn't DW leave for KCC in 1957? In which case it may have been DH. Oh well.......