CE Tewkesbury Abbey Wed, 19th Sept 2018 [L]

[mw963]

(c) the sermon - short - is preached by a tame priest who comes with us and, most important of all (d) we are fed! If the church doesn't like our rules, we don't go.

Unlike jonfan, I think this is the most utterly sensible stipulation I've seen in a long time. We don't want priests getting the upper hand, and so many of them don't seem to realise that if you haven't said what you need to say in five minutes you shouldn't be preaching at a Choral Evensong. The clue is in the name.

[Fons Bonitatis]

There wasn't a sermon in the CE broadcast from Tewkesbury though. This thread has gone way off topic ...

[DracoM]

Any CE thread is a broad church and pretty frequently digresses into ancillary topics!

[mopsus]

I think it is important to make clear what the words of the anthem are about if the congregation isn't going to recognise them at once. Some years back I was singing evensong with a visiting choir at Ely and the presiding canon simply said 'the anthem is Rheinberger's Abendlied'! Not everyone knows German.

[Miles Coverdale]

Incidentally, Mrs A and I sometimes sing with a choir dedicated to doing CE in parish churces. The choir has some ground rules: (a) one of us sings the responses (b) there are no announcements within the service (c) the sermon - short - is preached by a tame priest who comes with us and, most important of all (d) we are fed! If the church doesn't like our rules, we don't go.

I can't imagine many self-respecting vicars would allow a visiting choir to dictate what may or may not be said during a service, or to decree that they may not preach in their own church. What a presumptuous way to carry on.

[mopsus]

I can't imagine many self-respecting vicars would allow a visiting choir to dictate what may or may not be said during a service, or to decree that they may not preach in their own church. What a presumptuous way to carry on.

Maybe they go to places where many churches are served by one priest-in-charge, who may be at one of the other churches that afternoon/evening.

[ardcarp]

I can't imagine many self-respecting vicars would allow a visiting choir to dictate what may or may not be said during a service, or to decree that they may not preach in their own church. What a presumptuous way to carry on.

The person who has organised this for many years (though no longer directs the music) is the widow of a much-respected Canon in the diocese. She clearly knows where the singers are wanted and appreciated...which we are, judging by the chats we have over tea with local parishioners. As for 'spreading the gospel' there are other ways than bible-thumping. I think aesthetics come into it somewhere. I'm glad they do, because most of us wouldn't turn up and sing on the grounds of religious dogma alone. The Word is of course embedded in CE and not just in the lessons. One of our 'tame priests' is actually a retired Bishop, who (in line with mw963 above) makes his point forcefully and sometimes humourously in less than five minutes! Finally, many country churches don't have a resident vicar, self-respecting or otherwise. They are in a team with maybe 6 or 7 other churches, and are only too glad to have a 'proper' service sung once in a Blue Moon. I'd add that the local priest (if present) offers up the 'post-anthem' prayers and he/she or a parishioner reads the lessons.

I think it is important to make clear what the words of the anthem are about if the congregation isn't going to recognise them at once. Some years back I was singing evensong with a visiting choir at Ely and the presiding canon simply said 'the anthem is Rheinberger's Abendlied'! Not everyone knows German.

On our visits, the congregation is given a sheet (which we provide) with everything on it (thus obviating the need for announcements and confusion over hymn-verses, etc) and with the anthem words plus translation if needed. Incidentally, in bygone days, Lichfield Cathedral provided a bound book (rather like a hymn-book) for its congregations entitled 'Words of Anthems'. This must have restricted the choir somewhat to tried and tested works (much Wesley if I recall) and I guess this book must now be absent from the pews!

[mopsus]

Incidentally, in bygone days, Lichfield Cathedral provided a bound book (rather like a hymn-book) for its congregations entitled 'Words of Anthems'. This must have restricted the choir somewhat to tried and tested works (much Wesley if I recall) and I guess this book must now be absent from the pews!

I've seen such books elsewhere quite recently, for example, in King's College Chapel in the stalls reserved for Cambridge University members. The music list for the term would print the number in the book by the name of the anthem, if it appeared in the book.

[DracoM]

Maybe they go to places where many churches are served by one priest-in-charge, who may be at one of the other churches that afternoon/evening.

Exactly. The hunger for SUNG services has IME grown and not diminished, and my guess is that local congregations, not to mention hard-rpressed incumbent / i/c vicars fielding a number of small outposts particularly in far-flung rural areas and low on assistants etc would in fact welcome such an initiative.

[jean]

er...I think Draco was saying he'd quite like the Voluntary to be announced, by the announcer, at the beginning of the programme, not during the service...

Was he?

The items whose announcement he approved - the numbers of the psalms and the initial words and setting of the anthem were announced in the course of the service.

(And Draco - could you please give links to the programmes you want to talk about? It makes it so much easier...)

[jonfan]

The person who has organised this for many years (though no longer directs the music) is the widow of a much-respected Canon in the diocese. She clearly knows where the singers are wanted and appreciated...which we are, judging by the chats we have over tea with local parishioners. As for 'spreading the gospel' there are other ways than bible-thumping. I think aesthetics come into it somewhere. I'm glad they do, because most of us wouldn't turn up and sing on the grounds of religious dogma alone. The Word is of course embedded in CE and not just in the lessons. One of our 'tame priests' is actually a retired Bishop, who (in line with mw963 above) makes his point forcefully and sometimes humourously in less than five minutes! Finally, many country churches don't have a resident vicar, self-respecting or otherwise. They are in a team with maybe 6 or 7 other churches, and are only too glad to have a 'proper' service sung once in a Blue Moon. I'd add that the local priest (if present) offers up the 'post-anthem' prayers and he/she or a parishioner reads the lessons.

A much better explanation of what you do ardcarp and I’m sure greatly appreciated by the congregations you visit. Your original post came over as presumptuous as Miles C pointed out.

[jonfan]

Exactly. The hunger for SUNG services has IME grown and not diminished, and my guess is that local congregations, not to mention hard-rpressed incumbent / i/c vicars fieldign a number of small outposts particularly in far-flung rural areas and low on assistants etc would in fact welcome such an initiative.

Yes this is undoubtedly true. We have a sung communion each Sunday morning and we're looking to begin CE one Sunday a month in the New Year to see how it goes. Singing the Responses, Psalms, etc. in the past we could do at the drop of hat each week, but we are having to relearn the techniques for a new generation. Our priest doesn't see this as going backwards but fulfilling a demand for contemplative space in these frenetic times.
PS. Your spell checker seems to have deserted you DracoM or perhaps

[choralmike]

I attended this broadcast and was struck that such a good sound was obtained from quite a modest number of singers. The organ sounded absolutely splendid and I loved the varied accompaniment during the psalm singing. This is something which we hear less frequently these days it seems, but it certainly enhances the meaning and effect of a psalm.

[DracoM]

<< (And Draco - could you please give links to the programmes you want to talk about? It makes it so much easier...) >>

FGS, that would be EVERY CE ever broadcast.
My point is precisely that NO minister / celebrant ever says on air what the vol is to be.
Pray, how do I give a link to all of them, jean?

[mopsus]

My point is precisely that NO minister / celebrant ever says on air what the vol is to be.

I don't think I've ever heard the officiating clergy announce the voluntary at a service, broadcast or not. So if they do so on air, it lessens the sense that one is 'dropping in' on the daily round of worship in that place. There is a case for the BBC announcer saying what it will be at the beginning of the service, as it's usually chosen to complement the rest of the music or observe an anniversary, and sometimes takes up to 15 minutes of the broadcast! I wonder whether the practice of not doing so dates from the days when evensong broadcasts lasted only 45 minutes and the voluntary was often faded out, rather than being broadcast in its entirety.