CE St Pancras Church Wed, 16th May 2018 [L]

[DracoM]

[why is it relayed without fail year after year? Not being really my cup of tea, I'm perhaps not as aware of its "significance" as others on here..[/QUOTE]

Interesting question. At one time, a good deal of the repertoire at St Ps' was actually pretty avant garde, but in the last three or more years, IMO it's become a gentle showcase of not very exciting music. Actually, we hear more adventurous stuff in regular CEs, and as ardarp asks, what now is 'contemporary' about it i.e. of the minute and startling?

So convenient showcase, but maybe just outlived its usefulness a little, or been caught up with by other choirs / foundations and perhaps there is less need for it?

Certainly, the singing STYLE did not attract me to want a deal more. Generally speaking, my feeling is that truly contemporary music needs disciplined clarity and honed cleanness of line, what they call in the biz 'straight'.

[subcontrabass]

I heard some of this by accident, as I was out shopping after taking stuff to the dump. I really didn't like the last organ piece much - was it the sound of that particular organ, or was it just the way the piece was written which gave that effect? When was the organ made?

Organ last major rebuild 1954. See http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N01692 for specification.

[Vox Humana]

I really didn't like the last organ piece much - was it the sound of that particular organ, or was it just the way the piece was written which gave that effect?

I liked the voluntary very much indeed. I thought it very well written and very well played. However, I did think that this particular lumbering, opaque Romantic organ was absolutely the wrong instrument for it, however apt it might be for the sort of music for which it was originally intended. I think the piece would really come to life on an incisive and scintillating modern German organ.

I thought the second psalm chant was lovely. Thoroughly traditional in idiom, but IMO none the worse for that. I enjoyed the canticles too. The Bingham was top notch stuff and sounded to me as if it might be quite readily approachable for cathedral choirs. As a general point, how lovely not to have to endure pieces that were nothing more than a succession of "beautiful", atmospheric chords. Anyone can do that (and I certainly have). Everything here had more substance than that, especially the Bingham.

I don't know whose fault it was, but the final hymn was quite obviously too fast for the singers, who sounded as if they wanted more time to give it their all. The last verse might have sounded rather fine if it had been given the space it needed. If you want people to sing hymns well, you have to give them enough space to breath and enjoy filling the building with sound. But, sadly, perfunctory hymns are very much de rigueur these days. Much more exalted men than li'l old me have complained about this. The first hymn fared much better.

[Vox Humana]

Generally speaking, my feeling is that truly contemporary music needs disciplined clarity and honed cleanness of line, what they call in the biz 'straight'.

Agreed. I am not at all a fan of vibrato in small choirs (in large ones it tends to get blessedly lost). That said, I have heard far more distracting wobbling in my time and the choir compared very favourably with some CDs I have of secular choirs, e.g. the Finzi Singers.

[ardcarp]

The organ voluntary was written by Robin Holloway, a respected composer and a fellow of Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge where, by coincidence, next week's CE was recorded.

I think the mess-up in the final hymn may have arisen because there was mismatch between choir (i.e.conductor) speed and congregational speed. It sounded as if there was a large-ish congregation joining in the hymn.

[Vox Humana]

I think the mess-up in the final hymn may have arisen because there was mismatch between choir (i.e.conductor) speed and congregational speed. It sounded as if there was a large-ish congregation joining in the hymn.

You have a point, ardcarp, but I had the impression of a three-way disagreement about the speed. The choir did not quite keep pace with the organist who was pressing ever onwards. The congregation was still further behind, which they would inevitably be, being further away from the other performers (and, no doubt, the microphones), but all such factors need taking into account when singing hymns. It's the total effect that matters, not just what happens up in quire. In any building of any decent size there will always be a time lag between organ and congregation, but fast speeds don't lessen the problem, they actually make it more obvious.

[mw963]

You have a point, ardcarp, but I had the impression of a three-way disagreement about the speed. The choir did not quite keep pace with the organist who was pressing ever onwards. The congregation was still further behind, which they would inevitably be, being further away from the other performers (and, no doubt, the microphones), but all such factors need taking into account when singing hymns. It's the total effect that matters, not just what happens up in quire. In any building of any decent size there will always be a time lag between organ and congregation, but fast speeds don't lessen the problem, they actually make it more obvious.

Yes, it seemed to me too that it was a three-way tussle. Maybe the producer crept in, tapped the organist on the shoulder, and said "We're running out of time".

[mw963]

The organ voluntary was written by Robin Holloway, a respected composer and a fellow of Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge where, by coincidence, next week's CE was recorded.

Respected he may be, but it still wouldn't have made any difference to my hurrying away, had I attended a service where that was the voluntary. In its own right at a recital, well, fair enough, quite fun.

[mw963]

[why is it relayed without fail year after year? Not being really my cup of tea, I'm perhaps not as aware of its "significance" as others on here..

Interesting question. At one time, a good deal of the repertoire at St Ps' was actually pretty avant garde, but in the last three or more years, IMO it's become a gentle showcase of not very exciting music. Actually, we hear more adventurous stuff in regular CEs, and as ardarp asks, what now is 'contemporary' about it i.e. of the minute and startling?

So convenient showcase, but maybe just outlived its usefulness a little, or been caught up with by other choirs / foundations and perhaps there is less need for it?

Certainly, the singing STYLE did not attract me to want a deal more. Generally speaking, my feeling is that truly contemporary music needs disciplined clarity and honed cleanness of line, what they call in the biz 'straight'.[/QUOTE]


I wondered if I was going to get an earful on here, by questioning the fact that this has become an annual fixture on Radio 3, so thanks to all for being gentle with me. It rather confirms my hunch that the CE producers are getting a bit lazy/stale/cautious, with the attitude of "oh it worked last year, we'll do it again". Few cathedrals are given the honour of doing the same slot year after year, (St John's Ash Wed/Advent and in the past Trinity Epiphany being the few I can think of) so I don't really see why St Pancras has become so "immovable".

I'll certainly give the Psalms a go, thanks for the heads-up.

[ardcarp]

Respected he may be, but it still wouldn't have made any difference to my hurrying away, had I attended a service where that was the voluntary.

Mind you, I always feel the same about that Lefebure Wely Sortie.

On the final hymn, maybe it was the conductor driving the hymn faster than it could run because he was afraid time was running out, and the organist was torn between following his beat and being realistic. It does happen.

[Vox Humana]

Maybe the producer crept in, tapped the organist on the shoulder, and said "We're running out of time".

Since a verse of the hymn was omitted I guess that's a distinct possibility.

[Dave2002]

Mind you, I always feel the same about that Lefebure Wely Sortie.

I revisited the Holloway piece - Pentecost Toccata - and my views on that haven't changed. Maybe the organ wasn't really too bad after all.

I don't know how suited the Lefébure-Wely Sortie is to a church service, but it's much more fun IMO.
I assume you mean the E flat rather than the B flat. When I first heard it I thought it was fairground music.

E flat - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W3X2Itj5MU.

However, I would also agree that after a few hearings it does have less impact
This one by André Isoir is quite good though - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Isdw-zpsb5Q - though wild swings of tempo - deinitely a performance.

B flat - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8mvhyWTXKg

[mopsus]

Hymns at broadcast services are usually taken at quite a lick, lest they sound draggy on air. I think I'd have preferred that this one were omitted altogether rather than done with only 3 verses. There have been a number of very abbreviated hymns on broadcasts recently.

I also heard that the voluntary was abridged too, in order to fit into the time slot.

There are a number of regular fixtures still on CE, generally filling the summer holiday break: the Edington Festival, the 3 Choirs Festival, the Eton Choral Course, an RSCM Course, the Charles Wood Summer School (ticking a box for Northern Ireland). These have all come round without fail every year, for many years in most cases (I think - not so sure about RSCM and Charles Wood is a more recent addition).

As for the soprano sound, that can be explained by the makeup of the choir. There are a lot of singers around in London trained at a music college with opera in mind and trying to make a singing career. Paid church services are a useful source of income for them, and they have a place in an octet at a wealthy church, or get depping gigs. We used to get broadcasts from St Bride's Fleet St, and occasionally other churches such as St Clement Dane's, with a choir made up of this sort of singer. It's a specifically metropolitan phenomenon.

[jean]

St Martin-in-the-Fields seems to avoid its worst manifestations!

[mopsus]

St Martin-in-the-Fields seems to avoid its worst manifestations!

I had a friend who sang with them 10 years or so ago, and in those days at least I think the choir was not paid.