George Guest's method

[DracoM]

I have recently been discussing with some friends the impact a DoM can have on the sound of a choir. It is an alchemy, everyone acknowledged that.
BUT
I have also found myself listening to archived BBC / St John's College, Cambridge broadcasts etc.

The treble sound GG trained is highly distinctive. It drove us to ask a series of questions I'd very much welcome advice and help on:

1. Did GG look for a particular timbre ALREADY present in auditioning chorister recruits?
2. Exactly how did he train / produce / encourage that quite steely edge to the treble voice that made esp Latin texts live vividly, but gave urgency and character to so many of the choir's performances? Not so much in solo singing, but in the collective sound of the front line?
3. Did he model that sound on any other ensemble he knew?
4. Did he lay emphasis on darker toned bass lay clerks particularly - certainly how many of the choir's live broadcasts recordings come over?
5. Was it part of an intention to make the John's choral sound distinctively richer, weightier, more colourful?
6. Did he take into account the acoustic / somewhat unusual geography of the Chapel?
7. What was the X-factor GG had that made all his choirs sing very similarly? Were altos / tenors / basses conscious of a particular requirement in terms of their sound production?

Thx in advance for any advice and suggestions.




NB: I've posted this here because I'm pretty sure that nothing like the technical material implicit in the answers / suggestions is ever likely to form part of R3's 'Choir and Organ' programme as currently established.

[ArpSchnitger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZZpb2r0dFw might provide a few answers...
13:30 onwards and 22:00 onwards may be of particular interest.

Of the relationship between John's and "the place down the road", GHG tells a story of David Willcocks, who was told at a dinner for Old Choristers at St John's, following a Choral Evensong sung by Guest's choir, that the singing that evening had been 'quite out of this world'. DVW began his after-dinner speech: "As organist of King's, he was very interested to hear that the singing at John's was 'like nothing on earth'!"

GHG's autobiography http://amzn.eu/iM6EU1a is still available through secondhand sources.

[DracoM]

Many thx. Fascinating.

[ardcarp]

I remember the last Ash Wednesday broadcast from John's under Guest. He took everything at such a broad tempo, including the Allegri, one wondered how anyone could possibly have enough breath!

[DracoM]

Yes, but the SOUND of those trebles, the depth of the basses...was this an audition matter, or a training matter, or what?

[Dafydd y G.W.]

I sat in on a few of George Guest's practices in the 1980s. One of the things I recall him saying afterwards was that in selecting choristers the main thing he was concerned about was whether they could read adequately - not read music, but ordinary everyday reading - because of the vast amount of words they had to cope with. He claimed he wasn't concerned whether they could sing or not, because they could be trained to do that, but reading was essential. No doubt a degree of deliberate exaggeration to make his point, but this might imply that audition/selection was not where the distinctive sound came from, at least as far as boys were concerned.

This deduction is perhaps reinforced by the way he aimed to have two different sorts of treble sound, and to switch between them at will: a more traditional English cathedral sound for Wesley, Stanford, and similar repertoire, and a more "continental" sound for polyphony. One could hardly select boys for two different sounds, so that must have been a matter of training.

As to how he did it, I confess I have no idea. I suspect that by then it was more caught than taught, but he must somehow have got his initial "cohort" of boys to produce the sort of sounds he wanted!

Incidentally, he poo-poohed the idea that the youngest boys could read music. He maintained that they learned the music from their fellows ("caught not taught" again), having naturally quick perception and retentive memories at that age: only later did genuine note reading develop.

His tempi towards the end, always broad, were extraordinary. S. John's is the only place I have sung hymns at the tempi R.V.W. ("The custom in English churches is to sing many hymns much too fast") indicated in the English Hymnal. Ein' feste burg at minim=40 took a good ten minutes and made me miss my dinner on one occasion!

[DracoM]

Many thx.
Yes, 'caught not taught'.....oh, yes, yes, yes......I wish more teachers were that aware of how it happens, instead of preening about their own brilliance as interlocutors....!!!

[Dafydd y G.W.]

Another thing that struck me was the easy rapport Guest had with the boys. He could be sharp with them, but only for a moment, and the general atmosphere was relaxed and good humoured. He trusted them to do what needed to be done.

The contrast with (ahem) another establishment was striking. There the boys (and indeed men) there were regarded as musical automata. Sing a few bars, then instructions for how various notes should be rendered: all to be marked in the copies - more notes must have been marked than not. More time was spent in instruction, and writing in markings, than in singing.

[Miles Coverdale]

Yes, but the SOUND of those trebles, the depth of the basses...was this an audition matter, or a training matter, or what?

I'm not sure that sound was always there. This recording, which I think was made in 1972 or 73, doesn't sound like the choir did in later years particularly.

[DracoM]

How much was that 1970's recording technique / mic use / re-processing, and how much 'John's sound'?

[Dafydd y G.W.]

His tempi towards the end, always broad, were extraordinary. S. John's is the only place I have sung hymns at the tempi R.V.W. ("The custom in English churches is to sing many hymns much too fast") indicated in the English Hymnal. Ein' feste burg at minim=40 took a good ten minutes and made me miss my dinner on one occasion!

Getting a bit off topic, but I recall (amazing how things come back ...) Guest maintaining that organists played hymns too fast. He pointed out that church congregations generally contained a fair (!) number of elderly people, and they found it difficult to sing at speed, so it was unfair to play hymns at tempi they couldn't cope with.

In this he may have been influenced by his Welsh background. Welsh hymn tunes are meant to be sung slowly (English musicians, please note!) - and as for singing them in unison (but now I really am getting off topic ...).

[Dafydd y G.W.]

How much was that 1970's recording technique / mic use / re-processing, and how much 'John's sound'?

It does sound as if something odd has happened to the recording (not to mention the picture that accompanies it!). I have heard it on L.P. but too long ago to be able to offer a useful comment.

[Miles Coverdale]

How much was that 1970's recording technique / mic use / re-processing, and how much 'John's sound'?

I have a copy of that recording on LP (which was why I looked it out on YouTube), and the video is pretty faithful to it in terms of the sound quality. I just think it's what the choir sounded like at that time.

No choir, especially one that relies on undergraduates for its back rows, will sound exactly the same from one year to the next.

[Vox Humana]

Getting a bit off topic, but I recall (amazing how things come back ...) Guest maintaining that organists played hymns too fast. He pointed out that church congregations generally contained a fair (!) number of elderly people, and they found it difficult to sing at speed, so it was unfair to play hymns at tempi they couldn't cope with.

In this he may have been influenced by his Welsh background. Welsh hymn tunes are meant to be sung slowly (English musicians, please note!) - and as for singing them in unison (but now I really am getting off topic ...).

Hear, hear! Not sure that it's anything to do with his Welsh background though. I think it's more to do with a general, but often misguided assumption that 'stately' hymn speeds are inherently soporific. They can be in the wrong hands, of course, and there are no doubt a lot of wrong hands out there, but there is no reason why this should necessarily follow. I have lost count of the number of times I have heard an organist admit to dismissing congregation members' complaints that they are not given enough time to breathe. It is less common to hear of congregations complaining that hymns are too slow (except perhaps in happy-clappy churches).

[ardcarp]

church congregations generally contained a fair (!) number of elderly people, and they found it difficult to sing at speed, so it was unfair to play hymns at tempi they couldn't cope with.

congregation members' complaints that they are not given enough time to breathe.

I'm not taking sides on the slow/fast debate (each tune tends to have its own measure) but I would have thought it took more breath to sing a melodic line slowly.