Originally posted by Vox Humana
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Think it's out there now - suffice to say here, one establishment has had a pretty raw deal recently in finding real talent and it slipping away erelong. -
Well, nothing on the CCCOxf websites, so....?Comment
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You could also ask:Originally posted by ocarina View Post
Safeguarding is crucial for choirs with young people. I would ask a candidate about safeguarding procedures. I'm sure we all remember Robert King's prison sentence.Last edited by Stanfordian; 01-02-18, 10:27.Comment
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In which case I shall stay stumm: prob gave away too much of a clue as it is!Comment
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I completely agree that safeguarding is crucial for choirs with young people. Sorry to have to spell it out, but my comments were nothing more than flippant satire of some contributions to this forum.Originally posted by Stanfordian View PostComment
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Various musings
With one exception (Christopher Robinson) one has to go back over 80 years to find someone appointed as Organist (to use the traditional term) of either King’s or St John’s who wasn’t a graduate of one of those Colleges. In the event of a close call, I wonder if that might be a factor, in which case it would benefit the likes of Ashley Grote, Stephen Layton, Adrian Partington, Andrew Lumsden, James Vivian or Andrew Carwood, should they apply.
The Role Description confirms that this is a huge job these days, requiring a depth and breadth of experience that many top cathedral organists haven’t had the opportunity to obtain. Adrian Partington probably has more than any, particularly with regard to conducting professional orchestras and choruses in non-cathedral repertoire. A glance at any term’s music list shows that there seem to be four or five concerts in the Chapel every term, two or three being with professional orchestras. Several of these each year are broadcast on R3. External concerts often involve performing with professional groups also.
The relatively new Dean (judging from some of what he has written) appears to be someone with a strong personality who perhaps likes to have people reminded that he is in charge. If this is true, he’ll have a particularly important influence on who is appointed.
It’s a pity that King’s have said it’s not necessary to be an organist. At present, Stephen Cleobury leads by example by playing in part of services, often once a week according to a friend who attends fairly frequently. He also gives at least one (top quality) solo recital a term. Surely a high calibre organist is needed in order to help organ scholars with issues such as the requirement in that building to ‘play ahead’ of the beat. It’s one thing St Paul’s having a non-organist as they also have two professional organists and an organ scholar but at King’s the organ scholars are barely out of school and have to keep up with their academic studies as well as their organ playing, Astoundingly gifted as they always are, that is still quite demanding without being ‘on their own’ so to speak as regards all the playing duties. I wonder whether, in fact, King’s are not obliged to appoint an Organist under the terms of their statutes which only Parliament can alter, surely.
A perusal of the full advertisement details suggests that how prospective candidates ‘position’ their written applications in the first place and then how those shortlisted are able to present to other Fellows is going to be crucial. Not all people who are superb choir trainers will find this easy though I can see why these aspects matter to King’s where many Fellows are not necessarily in sympathy with everything that the Chapel and Choir stand for. I imagine that Stephen Cleobury handles himself extremely well in such company.
I’m surprised that no one has mentioned James O’Donnell who might be attracted by a change after 18 successful years and Matthew Owens (heavily involved in commissioning and performing new music and also with previous experience of teaching at Third Level).
In my view, given the profile and demands of this post, the salary alone should be c£100,000 though I doubt if this will be the case.Comment
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The current Statutes (Section I.2) say:Originally posted by Byrdsong View Post
There shall be as stipendiary members of the College: an Organist, a Master over the Choristers, at least one Chaplain, Choristers, and Choral and Organ Scholars. The number of Choral and Organ Scholars shall be determined by Ordinance.
Presumably Stephen Cleobury is both "Organist" and "Master over the Choristers". If the Master over the Choristers is not also an organist it would seem that they would have to appoint one, though there is nothing to say that the organist's duties would be onerous (it could be a part-time appointment).
Statutes may be changed by petitioning the Queen (not Parliament).Comment
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I think the duties conducting non-King’s ensembles are rather what the post holder makes of them. Stephen Cleobury conducted the CUMS Chorus until a few years ago, and was for some years chief conductor of the BBC Singers.Comment
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Hi Byrdsong and welcome (if this is your first visit) to the Forum. A very considered post if I may say so.With one exception (Christopher Robinson) one has to go back over 80 years to find someone appointed as Organist (to use the traditional term) of either King’s or St John’s who wasn’t a graduate of one of those Colleges. In the event of a close call, I wonder if that might be a factor, in which case it would benefit the likes of Ashley Grote, Stephen Layton, Adrian Partington, Andrew Lumsden, James Vivian or Andrew Carwood, should they apply.
The Role Description confirms that this is a huge job these days, requiring a depth and breadth of experience that many top cathedral organists haven’t had the opportunity to obtain. Adrian Partington probably has more than any, particularly with regard to conducting professional orchestras and choruses in non-cathedral repertoire. A glance at any term’s music list shows that there seem to be four or five concerts in the Chapel every term, two or three being with professional orchestras. Several of these each year are broadcast on R3. External concerts often involve performing with professional groups also.
The relatively new Dean (judging from some of what he has written) appears to be someone with a strong personality who perhaps likes to have people reminded that he is in charge. If this is true, he’ll have a particularly important influence on who is appointed.
It’s a pity that King’s have said it’s not necessary to be an organist. At present, Stephen Cleobury leads by example by playing in part of services, often once a week according to a friend who attends fairly frequently. He also gives at least one (top quality) solo recital a term. Surely a high calibre organist is needed in order to help organ scholars with issues such as the requirement in that building to ‘play ahead’ of the beat. It’s one thing St Paul’s having a non-organist as they also have two professional organists and an organ scholar but at King’s the organ scholars are barely out of school and have to keep up with their academic studies as well as their organ playing, Astoundingly gifted as they always are, that is still quite demanding without being ‘on their own’ so to speak as regards all the playing duties. I wonder whether, in fact, King’s are not obliged to appoint an Organist under the terms of their statutes which only Parliament can alter, surely.
A perusal of the full advertisement details suggests that how prospective candidates ‘position’ their written applications in the first place and then how those shortlisted are able to present to other Fellows is going to be crucial. Not all people who are superb choir trainers will find this easy though I can see why these aspects matter to King’s where many Fellows are not necessarily in sympathy with everything that the Chapel and Choir stand for. I imagine that Stephen Cleobury handles himself extremely well in such company.
I’m surprised that no one has mentioned James O’Donnell who might be attracted by a change after 18 successful years and Matthew Owens (heavily involved in commissioning and performing new music and also with previous experience of teaching at Third Level).
In my view, given the profile and demands of this post, the salary alone should be c£100,000 though I doubt if this will be the case.
I think that while organ scholars to many colleges are 'barely out of school', the big posts (Kings, Johns, etc) tend to get candidates with a year's extra experience gained somewhere or other.
I think all on the Forum would agree that a really first-rate trainer of voices, including young voices, is a pre-requisite. How that is sussed out at interview I don't know. An experienced singer OTOH, knows immediately if the conductor/director has 'got it' or not. And finally, I do hope someone who is really musical gets the job. It's possible to be a matchless technician without having a soul!
From A.H. Mann's appointment in 1876 to Cleobury's retirement in 2019 (a period of 143 years) there will have only been 5 organists...and given that Ledger only stayed for 8 years, the others tended to stick around. I do hope they pick the right person.
Last edited by ardcarp; 03-02-18, 15:44.Comment
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Stephen Cleobury is not "Master over the Choristers"
From the current Services Booklet at http://www.kings.cam.ac.uk/sites/def..._lent_2018.pdf
A NEW MASTER OVER THE CHORISTERS
We are delighted to welcome Yvette Day as Master over the Choristers. Yvette is also Head Teacher of King’s College School. She will be formally installed during Evensong on January 21.
Yvette Day came to King's College School this term, she was previously Head Teacher of The Chorister School, Durham.Comment
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Thank you. That's interesting.Originally posted by RAC View Post
It occurs to me that though the statutes say there should be an "organist" they do not say that the holder has to play the organ, or even be able to do so ....Comment
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From the King's website: 'In 1856, an Act of Parliament enabled the Cambridge colleges to rewrite their statutes. At King’s, the new regulations regarding the Choir stipulated that choristers were to receive instrumental instruction from the Organist'.
Whether or not an organ scholar has taken a gap year doesn't seem to me to make much difference to my point about managing the demands of studying for a degree at age 19, 21, or 22 along with everything else. It must be demanding enough as it is without not having a DoM who is a high calibre organist in charge. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. By the way, it's interesting that the Assistant DoM only seems to take the mixed choir, King's Voices on Mondays and when Stephen Cleobury is (rarely) away on other days of the week, one of the organ scholars conducts (and presumably takes the morning chorister rehearsals?).
That number of regular concerts with a professional orchestra I mentioned earlier is just those featuring the Chapel choir. The CUMS choir and orchestra concerts (which SC certainly used to take, I'm not sure if he still does) were not included in that list.Comment
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No, he gave up CUMS 4-5 years ago. CUMS Symphony Chorus,as it’s now known, has since about the millennium been largely a ‘town’ choir, as singing that repertoire is out of favour with today’s students.Comment
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Correct. That title has always been applied to the Head of King's College School (Cambridge).Originally posted by RAC View PostComment
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