Cathedral finances and the fallout

[MrGongGong]

. Moreover, nobody appreciates that for which they do not pay.

You sure of that?
I'm not at all

[teamsaint]

I think they should not be, so relieving the pressure on local taxes. Moreover, nobody appreciates that for which they do not pay.

That's just an assumption.
I can assure you that after 20 years of being self employed and running my own car doing 25/30k miles pa, I will never stop appreciating my company fuel card every time I put £60 of diesel in my car. And I have had that card for 10 years now.

Free museums, such as Bristol, are, IMO , a huge success, absolutely buzzing with activity much of the time, and a good use of public money, much about of which ( I think) is from central government funds, directly or indirectly.

[Dafydd y G.W.]

I thought some cathedrals had large property portfolios.

It depends what you mean by "large". I doubt that any are especially large, and some cathedrals have virtually no assets. But in any case the income from assets (large or small) will be fully committed to keeping the present show on the road, and is offset by a smaller subvention from the Church Commissioners. There won't be any slack to deal with costs rising higher than inflation or extraordinary expenditure like extensive restoration work.

No doubt some cathedrals manage their assets better than others, but better management is unlikely to produce an enormous increase of income. The only way you could hope to do this would be by a more radical approach, which might well be unacceptable for "reputational" reasons (e.g. kicking out small shopkeepers to put in chains who could afford vastly increased rents, selling land for luxury housing, etc.)

[Dafydd y G.W.]

People forget that until the 1930s it was impossible to get into a cathedral without paying. Visitors (who were, by present standards, few and far between) had to tip the vergers to be allowed in (a useful source of extra income for the said gentlemen).

Chester led the way in promoting free admission. Ironically, a few years ago they began charging. Then they stopped, and discovered that their income from visitors increased ....

[MrGongGong]

Why doesn't the CofE tax the faux-Christians (like our PM) who like to use Christianity as a means of trying to gain some kind of credibility?
It wouldn't take much to have a rising percentage of tax relative to the things they do which are against the teachings of Jesus.
So (for example) for every arms sale they have to pay 1% of gross income
for every person unable to be housed by the local authority another 1%
for every lie in Parliament 1%
and so on

problem solved and the real Christians get rid of some of the fellow travellers

[Alain Maréchal]

Is it still the case that in England you are a member of the established Church unless you declare otherwise, so that if you die without having made such a declaration and without connexions the CoE is obliged to conduct your funeral?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is it still the case that in England you are a member of the established Church unless you declare otherwise, so that if you die without having made such a declaration and without connexions the CoE is obliged to conduct your funeral?

I don't believe so. I think what happens in Southampton is true throughout the UK:

https://www.southampton.gov.uk/people-places/ceremonies/funerals-bereavement/public-health-act-funerals/

[Alain Maréchal]

I don't believe so. I think what happens in Southampton is true throughout the UK:

https://www.southampton.gov.uk/peopl...-act-funerals/

That extract does not seem to cover the case of somebody who dies with no connexions at all, thus with nobody to be "unwilling or unable" to make the arrangements. I was considering those who die unclaimed. (sorry about the double negatives - I tried to simplify but it did not cover my intention)

[Alain Maréchal]

You sure of that?
I'm not at all

I may have not been using "appreciate" correctly.
For example: if I miss an appointment at my Doctor's practice or the hospital I (or my insurers) will receive a bill. Therefore, I appreciate them and do not miss them. In the NHS, the cost of Did Not Attends (DNAs) is not charged directly to the patient. If it were, fewer appointments would be missed and the NHS would receive more of the sacred Value For Money.

To keep this on thread: I doubt very much if more than a small percentage of the hundreds of European schoolchildren who visit Canterbury and the Cathedral every morning in summer (it is convenient for the cross-channel coaches) appreciate it as anything other than a daytrip. Friends tell me they make straight for Primark with large shopping bags. There is usually, however, a school group (Dutch or German Lutheran) attending Evensong.

[Dafydd y G.W.]

Is it still the case that in England you are a member of the established Church unless you declare otherwise, so that if you die without having made such a declaration and without connexions the CoE is obliged to conduct your funeral?

You can only be a member of the Church of England if you are baptised.

If you were baptised by a Church of England cleric you are a member of the Church of England.

If you are a baptised Christian, not a member of the Church of England, and have not been episcopally confirmed, you become a member by being confirmed by a Church of England Bishop.

If you are a baptised and confirmed Christian (e.g. Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox) there is a set form by which you are "received" into the Church England by your parish priest.

There is no procedure for declaring that you are no longer a member, though if you join a church not in communion with the Church of England you would ipso facto cease to belong to it.

Parishioners (that is, people resident in the geographical parish) have a common law right to be buried in the parish church (but not in any other church) regardless of ecclesial or religious status, but this does not mean they are "members" of the Church of England. If they are not baptised a special form of service must be used.

[Alain Maréchal]

It must be your last example of which I was thinking. I recall a CoE priest complaining of the "Crematorium Rota" and having to conduct the funerals of persons of which he knew nothing, and with no means of finding out, nor of ascertaining their religion. I was thinking of that as an example of the CoE's unspoken contribution to national life.

( I once visited a large parish churchyard in East Sussex which has a "dissenter's corner" ).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That extract does not seem to cover the case of somebody who dies with no connexions at all, thus with nobody to be "unwilling or unable" to make the arrangements.

I think it does - If nobody is willing or able to arrange the funeral we will take responsibility for the funeral arrangements. This includes registration of the death and instructing a funeral director to collect the body, provide a coffin and transport the deceased to the crematorium/cemetery.

This, I think, may be clearer:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7687190.stm

[MrGongGong]

I may have not been using "appreciate" correctly.
For example: if I miss an appointment at my Doctor's practice or the hospital I (or my insurers) will receive a bill. Therefore, I appreciate them and do not miss them. In the NHS, the cost of Did Not Attends (DNAs) is not charged directly to the patient. If it were, fewer appointments would be missed and the NHS would receive more of the sacred Value For Money.
.

If you listened to last weeks "More or Less" on R4 you might discover (as I did) that DNAs don't really "cost" anything.
but back on task

[Dafydd y G.W.]

It must be your last example of which I was thinking. I recall a CoE priest complaining of the "Crematorium Rota" and having to conduct the funerals of persons of which he knew nothing, and with no means of finding out, nor of ascertaining their religion. I was thinking of that as an example of the CoE's unspoken contribution to national life.

( I once visited a large parish churchyard in East Sussex which has a "dissenter's corner" ).

Crematorium duty is a different matter, as a crematorium is not a parish church. No-one has the legal right to the ministrations of the Church of England there, though there might be a diocesan (or other local) policy to provide such ministrations as a "contribution to national life" (as you aptly put it).

Dissenters preferred to be buried in unconsecrated ground as they held consecration to be a nasty popish superstition. For the same reason, when the civil authorities began to provide cemeteries in the nineteenth century specially unconsecrated areas were provided for dissenters.

[Vile Consort]

I think it does - If nobody is willing or able to arrange the funeral we will take responsibility for the funeral arrangements. This includes registration of the death and instructing a funeral director to collect the body, provide a coffin and transport the deceased to the crematorium/cemetery.

This, I think, may be clearer:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7687190.stm

The local authority's social services department arranges registration of the death and the funeral in the case where nobody can be found to take responsibility for the arrangements, as I found when my cousin died last year after being admitted to hospital without divulging the contact details of her friends or family. The church had no involvement. I do know a (now defrocked) vicar who told of conducting funeral services attended only by the deceased, the funeral director's staff and a representative of the local council, but they were arranged and paid for by the council.

It was also the local authority that arranged the funeral of a former colleague of mine, after trying for nine months to locate relatives.