Cathedral finances and the fallout

[DracoM]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/18/englands-cathedrals-financial-crisis-running-costs-soar

[ardcarp]

I wonder how in Medieval times a cathedral or abbey church made its money from pilgrims flocking to see (for instance) a nail from the True Cross. Did they have turnstiles and charge a fee?

I say this because I really object to cathedrals (nowadays) charging a fee for admission. Several years ago I 'appeared' on You and Yours objecting to the compulsory fee to enter York Minster. No-one could quite believe there was an electronic till in the cathedral beeping as the money changed hands. There was...and it went on air.

Funding is a major problem, of course, and there must be more imaginative ways to keep these places up and running. Whilst they are 'Houses of God' they are also National Monuments whose visitors come to see architecture and history....oh, and to listen to music. So there ought IMO to be an element of state support, if only for the fabric. I do know that Deans and Chapters spend a lot of their time worrying about funding, which is not quite what their calling prepared them for. I guess Holy Relics and Indullgences are ruled out......

[MrGongGong]

I say this because I really object to cathedrals (nowadays) charging a fee for admission.

I wonder about this
I don't believe in god (or God) but like to visit (and sometimes work) in religious buildings so have no objections to being asked to pay.
BUT, I guess, if I was a believer then I would probably feel different.

Some places (as you say) are a bit tactless and the obvious Biblical reference surely isn't missed.

[Old Grumpy]

Mrs G and I were in Hull during the UK City of Culture year and went to visit Hull Minster at as part of our city centre mini-tour - we were very surprised to find it thronging real ale enthusiasts. There were stalls everywhere!

OG

[teamsaint]

"Big powerful instiution wants more public money " shocker.

A few actual figures. ( sorry it's the Mail ).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3316421/Church-makes-money-Starbucks-McDonald-s-Income-1-41bn-tops-fast-food-giant-s-earnings-1-37bn-three-times-higher-coffee-chain.html

[antongould]

I wonder how in Medieval times a cathedral or abbey church made its money from pilgrims flocking to see (for instance) a nail from the True Cross. Did they have turnstiles and charge a fee?

I say this because I really object to cathedrals (nowadays) charging a fee for admission. Several years ago I 'appeared' on You and Yours objecting to the compulsory fee to enter York Minster. No-one could quite believe there was an electronic till in the cathedral beeping as the money changed hands. There was...and it went on air.

Funding is a major problem, of course, and there must be more imaginative ways to keep these places up and running. Whilst they are 'Houses of God' they are also National Monuments whose visitors come to see architecture and history....oh, and to listen to music. So there ought IMO to be an element of state support, if only for the fabric. I do know that Deans and Chapters spend a lot of their time worrying about funding, which is not quite what their calling prepared them for. I guess Holy Relics and Indullgences are ruled out......

Totally agree ...... there needs to be an element of state support ..... how much did the banks get .... ????

[ardcarp]

"Big powerful instiution wants more public money " shocker.

A few actual figures. ( sorry it's the Mail ).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...fee-chain.html

It's not really valid to compare the C of E with Starbucks or MackyD. The latter has 1200 'outlets' in the UK, whereas the C of E has 16000 churches, all requiring heating, maintenance and the occasional organist. Further, each church is (to some extent at least) responsible for its own finances. If I'm not mistaken, each parish has a sum (is it called a precept?) which it must in addition pay to HQ for such things as clergy stipends. Quite hard if you're a tiny church on the Isles of Scilly with a regular congregation of six people and a dog.

This from Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_and_finances_of_the_Church_of_England

...from which it appears there is some support from central government in the form of a grant.

[subcontrabass]

I guess Holy Relics and Indullgences are ruled out......

There are still a few relics around: St Albans (a shoulder-blade of St Alban, usually kept under lock and key), Durham (substantial parts of Bede and Cuthbert at opposite ends of the cathedral, plus the head of St Oswald), St Davids (there appears to be some uncertainty about whose relics are there).

[ardcarp]

St Jean du Doigt in Brittany has the right idea........

[teamsaint]

It's not really valid to compare the C of E with Starbucks or MackyD. The latter has 1200 'outlets' in the UK, whereas the C of E has 16000 churches, all requiring heating, maintenance and the occasional organist. Further, each church is (to some extent at least) responsible for its own finances. If I'm not mistaken, each parish has a sum (is it called a precept?) which it must in addition pay to HQ for such things as clergy stipends. Quite hard if you're a tiny church on the Isles of Scilly with a regular congregation of six people and a dog.

This from Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_and_finances_of_the_Church_of_England

...from which it appears there is some support from central government in the form of a grant.

Yes the comparison with big corporations is silly, but the point remains that the C of E has enormous financial resources, as well as obligations.

[Dafydd y G.W.]

Yes the comparison with big corporations is silly, but the point remains that the C of E has enormous financial resources, as well as obligations.

Yes, but it's an irrelevant point. Turnover is not profit.

If I have a business with a turnover of a million pounds (that "makes" a million pounds as the Mail would put it) am I rich man? Not if my costs are £999,999 - I'm actually a very poor man!!

[jean]

Mrs G and I were in Hull during the UK City of Culture year and went to visit Hull Minster at as part of our city centre mini-tour - we were very surprised to find it thronging real ale enthusiasts. There were stalls everywhere!

There's a CAMRA festival in Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral every year - but they're lucky, they have a vast crypt (the only part of the enormous Lutyens project that ever got built) so they do not need to invade the cathedral proper. University exams take place there too.

The Anglican cathedral is not so lucky, and rather than charge for admission, they do let the central space out for events. The first time I saw evidence of this, it was laid out for a dinner much as in the illustration here. It happened to be during the Liverpool Biennial, and I was convinced at first I was looking at an artwork.

[Dafydd y G.W.]

There are still a few relics around: St Albans (a shoulder-blade of St Alban, usually kept under lock and key), Durham (substantial parts of Bede and Cuthbert at opposite ends of the cathedral, plus the head of St Oswald), St Davids (there appears to be some uncertainty about whose relics are there).

Canterbury is supposed to have S. Bartholomew's arm (given by Emma, wife of King Canute), but there's some doubt about this.

[teamsaint]

Yes, but it's an irrelevant point. Turnover is not profit.

If I have a business with a turnover of a million pounds (that "makes" a million pounds as the Mail would put it) am I rich man? Not if my costs are £999,999 - I'm actually a very poor man!!

Of course it isn't irrelevant. The C of E has complicated finances, but it does have enormous resources. It might not regard them as enough, but isn't that always the way ?

[jean]

...The C of E has complicated finances, but it does have enormous resources...

It could always achieve liquidity by selling some cathedrals.

But who would it sell them to?