CE St Paul's Cathedral, London Wed, 24th Jan 2018

[DracoM]

CE St Paul's Cathedral


Order of Service:


Introit: Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du mich? SWV 415 (Schütz)
Responses: Ayleward
Psalm 149 (Stanford)
First Lesson: Isaiah 49: 1-13
Canticles: Wesley in E
Second Lesson: Acts 22: 3-16
Anthem: Ascribe unto the Lord (Wesley)
Hymn: Disposer supreme (Hanover)


Organ Voluntary: Fugue in E minor, Op 35 No 1 (Mendelssohn, arr. Smits)


Simon Johnson (Organist)
Andrew Carwood (Director of Music)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09nntdt

[chrisjstanley]

Oh loud be their TRUMP

OMG

bws
Chris S

[ardcarp]

I like the choice of introit! Wish I could say the same about Wesley Canticles. But who knows? Today I might see them in a new light......

[Finzi4ever]

I like the choice of introit! Wish I could say the same about Wesley Canticles. But who knows? Today I might see them in a new light......

At least for you, Ardcap, they're using the shortened Nunc Gloria.
Well done the 'verse week' Bass for not falling into the 'And his mercy' trap that caught Bury out in 1988: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRhPtXnTTFI
...guess who had to buy the Abbot Ale for Paul Trepte that evening!

[mopsus]

At least for you, Ardcap, they're using the shortened Nunc Gloria.

This is the Gloria written for the Nunc. The longer version you sometimes hear is interpolated from the rarely heard Jubilate from the Service in E. (I sang on what was believed to be the first recording of this Jubilate).

[Finzi4ever]

BIG! Supremely professional. Sure others will wish to comment on the problems of recording balance in that building...

[mw963]

We talked about levels on voluntaries last week, well today was a classic example of how NOT to do it, very obvious and clumsy fiddling which for me spoiled the Mendelssohn.

In general I didn't feel today's balance was as competent - given the difficulties of the site - as we've had in the past from St Paul's.

(You just beat me to it Finzi4ever).

[ardcarp]

I like the choice of introit! Wish I could say the same about Wesley Canticles. But who knows? Today I might see them in a new light......

Forgive me for quoting my own post! Here is a bit about the Schutz:

In part 3 of the Symphoniae sacrae (1650) Schütz joined the polychoral writing of his early Psalmen Davids with the soloistic style he learned from Monteverdi. The masterpiece Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du mich? is scored for a six-voice ensemble, two four-voice choruses, and two obbligato instrumental parts.


Well, one missed the instruments of course, but even allowing for that, the effect was hardly as described or indeed as I remember it, so scrambled are the St Paul's acoustics. It maybe wasn't the wisest choice. I won't comment on the canticles, but I think the Wesley 'Ascribe' came over rather well, given that it benefits from a somewhat muscular approach; and there was some real enthusiasm in the treble line which is always good to hear. There were some tender moments too.

I really must drop in on St Paul's one day and hear Evensong at first hand. Were any forumistas there?

[ardcarp]

Well done the 'verse week' Bass for not falling into the 'And his mercy' trap that caught Bury out in 1988: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRhPtXnTTFI
...guess who had to buy the Abbot Ale for Paul Trepte that evening!

Very brave of you to post that up! Maybe you too have good cause to forget Wesley in E !
I thought the choir had a fresh and eager sound. When did they last broadcast...and how is the music there now? The son (oops, grandson) of a friend of mine signed up there some years ago now. In the past they produced the goods without all the choir-school trapings of the bigger places, as you know. I like Trepte's Responses.

[mw963]

Why IS it so fashionable to knock Mendelssohn (not here, but recently) and Wesley?

If I dare criticise Leighton I'm duly rebuked, with patronising instructions along the lines of "why don't you try xxx as an introduction to his music?"......

Know which I'd rather have. Is it just me that enjoys that "Abraham and his seed" moment in the Mag...?

Sorry, clearly I'm beyond redemption amongst you illuminati.

[Roger Judd]

No, mw963, you are not alone - having been a chorister at Winchester Cathedral, where SSW was organist in the 19th century, I love all things Wesley. The canticles are difficult to bring off convincingly, and I fear that I didn't think St Paul's quite managed it. That could, however, have more to do with the acoustic and the BBC sound, which did the choir no favours at all. There were times in the Schütz when it was almost impossible to know what was going on.
RJ

[ardcarp]

I'd just like to say I'm not anti-Wesley. He was one of the few carrying the torch for Anglican Church Music when it was In the Wilderness. I'm very fond of much of his work (even simpler pieces like Thou Shalt Keep Him) and appreciate Ascribe, The aforemntioned Wilderness, and Blessd be the G and F and much besides. I just don't like the canticles in E or F.

Changing the subject slightly, it occurs to me that maybe we shouldn't slag off the BBC engineers too much. OK, I'm sure in an ideal world things could be better, but I dare say there are budget and time limitations on these 'religious outside broadcasts'. Personally, I'd rather hear live CEs warts and all; and we certainly don't want the Beeb (and we know they read the Forum) to take their ball home. St Paul's must present particular difficulties as anyone standing in the Nave and hearing music in the Choir will know.

Another live CE next week...in easier acoustics!

[mw963]

Oh indeed, ardcarp, but what is obvious is that some of the "old disciplines" and the accumulated technical knowledge that was built up about individual venues seems to have been forgotten. For example there are certain microphone techniques that were reliable, accurate, and provided excelllent mono compatibility, (which is an important consideration for the BBC given that so many people will be listening on a single-speakered-device) that seem to have been abandoned by some of today's engineers. It's very evident during the Proms, where established well-tried and well-liked techniques have been thrown away, with the result that the RAH no longer sounds like the RAH - just a "mean small sound" in many cases that doesn't do justice to the place or the musicians.

St Paul's has been done better in the past, and unless we comment on it the powers-that-be may simply say "oh we did it like this last year and it was fine". I have to say I really don't think that yesterday was fine.

Roger himself has been a "victim" of level fiddling in the past. I've mentioned before a performance of a piece of Dupre (Chorale (?) and Fugue in A) from about 20 years ago, where as fast as he piled on the stops at the end the FM network compression (there was no DSat feed back then) knocked him back. So furious was I that I "re-balanced" the off-air recording myself so that at least I can enjoy roughly what was intended. As I've said before Roger, it's one of my "go-to" recordings when I need cheering up - magnificent piece and spectacular performance. Respect!

As Roger says, it WAS hard to tell yesterday what was choir and what was acoustics, and the Wesley's didn't come off for me as they would normally, and I suspect that the fault lies with the balance.

But I would be the first to concede that I'm being very critical. And thanks for the clarification about poor old Wesley. I'd further concede that I wouldn't want him or Mendelssohn every day, but sparingly used they can be an absolute treat.

[DracoM]

An interesting problem / situation arises here in that a number of foundations have built in microphone / sound relay etc placements because they regularly webcast their services.

Such foundations have presumably taken advice about their particular acoustic / choir / service range and then gone ahead. Why - and I KNOW this happens - when the BBC arrive to transmit a service, do the incoming engineers slap stuff where THEY think it's needed and the resultant sound is so different from that which the webcast transmits, and by no means the better for it either.

And, yes, like some others, I'm sorry, but for a variety of reasons, yesterday's CE from St P's was IMO a bit of a mess.

[jonfan]

Yes it was a bit of a mess and maybe best to move on as I’m sure sound balancers in charge knew it was. It can be done very well at St Paul’s, for example the series of anthem cds the choir did for Hyperion when the much missed John Scott was DOM. I must strongly disagree with mw963 about the broadcast sound from the RAH. It’s been superb recently and none better than the Concert Sound and binaural feeds from the Proms last year.
Great singing yesterday and good to hear loads of Wesley.