CE St Paul's Cathedral, London Wed, 24th Jan 2018

[chitreb]

In the debate about sound over various threads I think I have lost the (dare I say) thread a bit. Can someone confirm the BEST way to listen to CE (notwithstanding microphone placement etc.). Is it live FM, live DAB, live internet, iPlayer download, or anything else I have missed?

I did enjoy the binaural iPlayer the other week on my headphones, especially the Messiaen.

[mw963]

I can't comment on the internet side of things, although I suspect there are people on the technical part of this forum who would know the answer...

However, for Radio 3 the FM transmission is subjected to automatic network compression (often known as Optimod in the same way that vacuum cleaners are generically known as Hoovers). For a period Optimod was turned off for Choral Evensong (and other live programmes) but soon after Wirght arrived this concession was ended.

On DSat/DTT(Freeview) and DAB there is no Optimod, so personally I find these versions infinitely preferable, given that they run at a bitrate of 192 kbps (at least most of the time, DAB occasionally drops to 160 kbps). 192 kbps is generally reckoned to be bordering on good to excellent in terms of audio quality under mp2 coding, and given that with the absence of Optimod one is treated to the full dynamic range of the original (but see my comment about the maual level fiddling that went on during the Mendelssohn) I would recommend using these in preference to FM. I might add that German Radio on Dsat runs at 320 kbps, which gives one an idea of why I say that 192 kbps borders on good to excellent - it could be SO much better as far as the BBC is concerned.

As to the internet, where there is a high quality feed the usefulness of the extra quality is going to be limited by the excellence or otherwise of one's sound card. This is an absolute minefield unless one is prepared to do a lot of research, and spend a little money, because no amount of extra bits will serve any purpose if a budget sound card is the method for deriving the audio. As I say, it's not really my area of expertise, but a question posed on the Technical Forum might be useful - for all of us.

[ardcarp]

I think I have lost the (dare I say) thread a bit

Not surprised!

Going well off-piste, I'd just mention that Norway has already turned off its FM signal for radio broadcasts. It's caused a certain amount of annoyance over there, but I dare say (knowing them) that the bitrate is probably good....that is if you can receive any signal at all in a fjord flanked by mountains!

Slightly less off topic, I wouldn't want to compare Wesley with Mendelssohn! The latter is a world-class composer (many of whose orchestral works I've conducted), and as a kid I was blown away by being at a rehearsal of his youthful Octet. Wesley not quite in the same league, methinks.

[DracoM]

http://www.saintthomaschurch.org/calendar/events/worship/21625/choral-evensong

Compare this with what we heard from St P's??
Totally different repertoire, yes, and not soloists but a real choir and UNACCOMPANIED in introit, psalms, canticles. NO, not blemish free, but........you'll have to grit your teeth a bit over the Rector's intoning, but....small price to pay for a good choir really doing its stuff.

[BasilHarwood]

http://www.saintthomaschurch.org/cal...horal-evensong

Compare this with what we heard from St P's??
Totally different repertoire, yes, and not soloists but a real choir and UNACCOMPANIED in introit, psalms, canticles. NO, not blemish free, but........you'll have to grit your teeth a bit over the Rector's intoning, but....small price to pay for a good choir really doing its stuff.

Much prefer the St Paul’s sound (tho I’m not a fan of such a huge acoustic) compared to the NYC one... I think Andrew Carwood, coming from the background of a singer, really encourages the choristers to sing healthy and well; their sound is tremendous.

[mw963]

I think most of us are of the view that St Paul's was actually very good musically, but it didn't really make it through to the listeners for the reasons stated.

[mw963]

Not surprised!

....that is if you can receive any signal at all in a fjord flanked by mountains!

I suspect they ARE doing it properly, and I believe they're also using DAB+ (the BBC uses plain DAB which is less efficient). But on either system the great thing about fjords and mountains is that the signals bouncing around via reflections actually re-inforce each other, so DAB can (provided there are sufficient transmitters and relays) work superbly well in mountains. Given that Norway already had built a comprehensive network of analogue TV relays over the years, it's relatively easy to equip existing sites with DAB and achieve excellent coverage.

cf VHF/FM which really objects to bouncing signals and reflections, giving rise to the familiar "multipath distortion" which can plague reception on FM in the same sort of mountainous terrain (and indeed in hilly and built up areas too)..

As you say, off-piste.

[ardcarp]

If you stuck a pin in Oslo and rotated Norway through 180 degrees, Tromso would reach down to Rome. So I am told. I hope they've got lots of aerials in the Arctic Circle.

[Nevilevelis]

Much prefer the St Paul’s sound (tho I’m not a fan of such a huge acoustic) compared to the NYC one... I think Andrew Carwood, coming from the background of a singer, really encourages the choristers to sing healthy and well; their sound is tremendous.

[Keraulophone]

Catching up on this CE in iPlayer, I particularly enjoyed the feast of S.S.Wesley, as well as the highly dramatic Schütz.

The St Paul’s back row launched Ascribe in majestic fashion. Such legato passages really benefit from the multiple pro voices of one of our large foundations, as do the solo sections. I nearly jumped off the sofa at the entry ‘As for the gods of the heathen’. The trebles sounded equally magnificent, and contributed some forthright solos which pinged into the acoustic.

One got used to the broadcast sound balance, heard on headphones. For me, the main issue here was with the clarity of the organ sound when accompanying the choir. It was more diffuse than one usually hears from the choir stalls. Although it is unfair to compare a live broadcast to a recording over several days, a much truer and very satisfying balance can be heard in the Hyperion series The English Anthem, the first volume dating back to 1989.

[mw963]

One got used to the broadcast sound balance, heard on headphones. .

I wonder if we're groping towards the truth here, The Hereford iplayer version was described as binaural. The Exeter rig I saw was veering towards binaural on the choir (*), save for the absence of a dummy head or - as the BBC preferred to use - a perspex disc mounted vertically between and in line with the mics.

Now binaural is fine PROVIDED one listens on headphones. It is not entirely suitable for loudspeakers, and is generally DISASTROUS in mono.

If this sort of basic training is being forgotten by the BBC then technical standards really are threatened.

But of course, it's only a possibility...... But I must try the St Paul's on headphones this afternoon.

(*) Of course I couldn't tell what polar diagram the mics were set to, but the inter-mic distance on the stereo pair was certainly NOT the traditional co-incident, which is important for mono compatibility.

[mw963]

I do agree that it did sound quite a bit better - in fact a lot better - on headphones. But unless a programmes is billed as "binaural" then really the BBC should be balancing it for speakers.

I can't easily check the mono compatibility - gone are the days (at least for me, my Revox tuner is in the attic due to all the dynamics compression on FM) when one could switch easily to FM mono, the satellite receiver doesn't wish to trouble itself with deriving a mono signal.

But I again monitored the gain riding on the voluntary, using of course my ears - but also a pair of BBC meters - and it was somewhat overdone.

[DracoM]

Still found it difficult to listen to.

[mw963]

Still found it difficult to listen to.

Sorry - do you mean you listened on headphones (and still found it difficult to listen to)?

[DracoM]

No. The whole 'experience'.