The Collaborative Orchestra: Choruses

[EnemyoftheStoat]

I've had my attention drawn to this:

Association of British Orchestras 2018 Conference. 11.45am session; Friday 26 January.
THE COLLABORATIVE ORCHESTRA: CHORUSES.

With recent research suggesting that over 2 million people in the UK sing in a choir, how are orchestras collaborating with this resurgence in choral singing?
What of the relationship between symphony chorus and orchestra, choral directors and conductors, and choral singers and orchestral musicians.
Do we value and nurture these choirs and the outstanding but unpaid service that they provide?
How can orchestras best engage and benefit singers from all and any musical backgrounds?

Chaired by Matthew Swann, CEO of the City of London Sinfonia, with Leslie East, Chair of the Association of British Choral Directors, and Neil Ferris, Chorus Director of the BBC Symphony Chorus.

Any thoughts?

[ardcarp]

How can orchestras best engage and benefit singers from all and any musical backgrounds?

One is tempted to be flippant and say 'pay them'! However most symphony orchestras have a chorus (plus paid chorus-master and accompanist) who are willing to give up their time in order to participate in the great works for chorus and orchestra...for nothing.

Not sure what the conference will discuss. Outreach to younger singers perhaps?

[mopsus]

Not to treat choir members like servants. A few years ago I was rehearsing for a concert in a Cathedral with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra. The orchestra's seats hadn't been put out for them, and some members of the orchestra thought the choir should remedy this. 'If you want something doing, do it yourself!' sneered one of them, looking at us pointedly.

[Cockney Sparrow]

As a Bass who, in my earlier years fell off the back of raked staging (no damage, amazingly) I am eternally grateful for H&Safety and the the strictures of public liability insurers. I'm sure that concert managers would have carried on asking me to stand on odd assemblages of benches, woodwork etc otherwise. Since then, I haven't had to walk out of a concert rehearsal, although sometimes its been unsatisfactory and uncomfortable.

Anyone been required to descend the removeable steps on the Barbican stage? (I keep meaning to write a H& Safety letter to the stage manager there). They are a definite peril, as now quite a lot of years on, they are not safe enough for me. Has anyone noticed how a lot of those willing to turn up for weekly (and more) rehearsals are those aged over 50 and dare I say, over 60 - so deserve a bit of enhanced safety in my opinion. I probably won't be singing to try out Rattle's new auditorium when it comes, but hopefully it will be properly designed for choral singers as well?

[EnemyoftheStoat]

As a Bass who, in my earlier years fell off the back of raked staging (no damage, amazingly) I am eternally grateful for H&Safety and the the strictures of public liability insurers. I'm sure that concert managers would have carried on asking me to stand on odd assemblages of benches, woodwork etc otherwise. Since then, I haven't had to walk out of a concert rehearsal, although sometimes its been unsatisfactory and uncomfortable.

Anyone been required to descend the removeable steps on the Barbican stage? (I keep meaning to write a H& Safety letter to the stage manager there). They are a definite peril, as now quite a lot of years on, they are not safe enough for me. Has anyone noticed how a lot of those willing to turn up for weekly (and more) rehearsals are those aged over 50 and dare I say, over 60 - so deserve a bit of enhanced safety in my opinion. I probably won't be singing to try out Rattle's new auditorium when it comes, but hopefully it will be properly designed for choral singers as well?

It's unlikely that the ABO have in mind such mundane matters as seating, basic comfort and Health & Safety, but it's telling that these are cited. Orchestra pros would not put up with some of the unsatisfactory performing conditions facing "volunteer" singers. The dodgy Barbican steps are one example; I'm familiar with those as well as the appalling backstage "choir room", or is it a store room?

These things are tolerated because it is a privilege to share the stage with world-class musicians, with whom, by the way, there is generally an excellent rapport - with the odd exception. The problem is usually with admin & planners; it's not a clever idea to shoehorn a chorus of x (where x = the number permitted by Health & Safety/MU rules/excessive percussion gimmickry) into a space where there's not even elbow room to expand the rib-cage. Unfortunately, amateurs don't have union reps on their side when this happens.

Another example: Prom concerts where none of a largish choir is actually at stage level (leaving large empty spaces there), but instead in those cramped tip-up seats further up.

Rattle's new hall may or may not be properly designed for choral singers, but I wouldn't be too sure; I'm told (having never performed there) that the choir spaces at Symphony Hall are not the best. Maybe Simon Halsey will be representing the interests of his choral cohorts this time.

[Once Was 4]

Not to treat choir members like servants. A few years ago I was rehearsing for a concert in a Cathedral with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra. The orchestra's seats hadn't been put out for them, and some members of the orchestra thought the choir should remedy this. 'If you want something doing, do it yourself!' sneered one of them, looking at us pointedly.

That's appalling and I hope that you made it clear what you thought. Relations between contract professional orchestras and amateur choirs can be very poor indeed. Generally, gigging musicians get to know the choirs that they play for regularly and things are a lot better. But I remember when some female orchestral players refused to share dressing room facilities with the ladies of the chorus: not because of any 'professional v amateur' silliness but because the chorus ladies were totally oblivious to the damage that liberal dousings of hairspray could do to stringed instruments. As a horn player I was once pushed hard for some reason by a chorus member whilst playing; this made me push the mouthpiece very hard against my chops and I had to stop for 10 minutes; I have also seen choristers manhandling instruments (one doing quite a lot of damage); in over 45 years of doing opera and theatre work I have never seen professional singers behave like that. Mind you - isn't that choral repertoire wonderful

[mopsus]

But I remember when some female orchestral players refused to share dressing room facilities with the ladies of the chorus: not because of any 'professional v amateur' silliness but because the chorus ladies were totally oblivious to the damage that liberal dousings of hairspray could do to stringed instruments.

In fact most choirs I've sung with in recent years have a 'no perfume/hairspray' rule when performing (except, rather surprisingly, the 3 Choirs Festival Chorus). It can make voices seize up too!

[Once Was 4]

>Orchestra pros would not put up with some of the unsatisfactory performing conditions facing "volunteer" singers. The dodgy Barbican steps are one example; I'm familiar with those as well as the appalling backstage "choir room", or is it a store room?<

You must be joking! Please do not get me started on this (too late, you have!) I am not sure where to begin - the theatre where there is one small communal bandroom which also serves as the entrance lobby to the pit so the front rows of the stalls can actually see players changing? The theatre where there are notices in the bandrooms instructing people not to eat food there and always to wash their hands because of the rat poison? The halls where there are no towels, hot water and toilet paper (that's a lot of them)?

And what about the time that there was a row when, just prior to a performance of the Britten 'War Requiem', the boy's choirmaster took his charges in to the ladies bandroom and proceeded to try and rehearse them there? (oops - sorry, I should not have included that as we did not stand for it - they got chucked out!!).

At the end of the day, volunteers can walk away (please don't though - that choral music is too life-enhancing and we must not loose it); if professionals do that the bills do not get paid - despise them if you must but please accept that at least

[EnemyoftheStoat]

>Orchestra pros would not put up with some of the unsatisfactory performing conditions facing "volunteer" singers. The dodgy Barbican steps are one example; I'm familiar with those as well as the appalling backstage "choir room", or is it a store room?<

You must be joking! Please do not get me started on this (too late, you have!) I am not sure where to begin - the theatre where there is one small communal bandroom which also serves as the entrance lobby to the pit so the front rows of the stalls can actually see players changing? The theatre where there are notices in the bandrooms instructing people not to eat food there and always to wash their hands because of the rat poison? The halls where there are no towels, hot water and toilet paper (that's a lot of them)?

And what about the time that there was a row when, just prior to a performance of the Britten 'War Requiem', the boy's choirmaster took his charges in to the ladies bandroom and proceeded to try and rehearse them there? (oops - sorry, I should not have included that as we did not stand for it - they got chucked out!!).

At the end of the day, volunteers can walk away (please don't though - that choral music is too life-enhancing and we must not loose it); if professionals do that the bills do not get paid - despise them if you must but please accept that at least

Despise? Good grief, no, I'm truly sorry if you think that. Without professional orchestras we'd get no chance to tackle the repertoire (life-enhancing and otherwise) at anywhere near their level.

I should probably have said that concert managers where I operate would not impose those conditions on pros - and rightly so - but seem to think they are ok for amateurs. Tours (national or international) have pretty much dried up so we don't in general encounter those provincial conditions that you mention, although a large rat does feature in the chorus history and the Barbican has its own rodent population (but no warnings - presumably they don't try to poison them).

As for the instances of choral misbehaviour mentioned above, those are truly amateurish; if I recall correctly, people have got the boot for that sort of thing, and they should. But they shouldn't get a chance to happen in the first place - so we're back to management.


I think that we've got diverted from what (I think) the ABO discussion is really about, which is how orchestras should be collaborating with choirs at a more "macro" level, for example repertoire. There may be two million choral singers in the UK, but what exactly does that mean? Would these singers want to sing with orchestras anyway?

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Killed that one.

But then I suppose choral evensong doesn't involve orchestras.

[DracoM]

Has done from time to time, but rarely, I agree.

[oddoneout]

How can orchestras best engage and benefit singers from all and any musical backgrounds?

This might be relevant?(I hope the link works - I'm not much good at such things) If nothing else it's a ray of sunshine in the increasingly bleak world of music in education.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/going-out/norfolk-pupils-prepare-to-stage-a-brand-new-children-s-opera-1-5373847

[greenilex]

Grand that it is not just London where these initiatives take place!