Choirs and subsidies

[subcontrabass]

Article by Peter Phillips: https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...better-support

[jean]

I happened to be in London for this year's London International A Cappella Choral Competition Here's a link to the thread I started here about it.

I thought the standard was uniformly high, and whatever the reasons why a British choir didn't win, I would not have thought lack of finance for adequate rehearsal time was one of them.

[rauschwerk]

The subsidy issues is only one of several points made in the article. One sentence stood out for me: "For the good amateur choirs up and down the land there is no litmus test; I am constantly amazed at how inadequate they are by international standards."

My long experience suggests that there are very many amateur choirs in the UK who are not half as good as they think they are, probably because they don't ever do the 'litmus test' and compare themselves with the finest groups from abroad. That is one of Mr. Phillips's main points, isn't it?

I have sung in choirs, some of whose members genuinely think it doesn't matter if a three minute piece drops in pitch by a semitone or more. That attitude drives me mad.

[underthecountertenor]

The subsidy issues is only one of several points made in the article. One sentence stood out for me: "For the good amateur choirs up and down the land there is no litmus test; I am constantly amazed at how inadequate they are by international standards."

My long experience suggests that there are very many amateur choirs in the UK who are not half as good as they think they are, probably because they don't ever do the 'litmus test' and compare themselves with the finest groups from abroad. That is one of Mr. Phillips's main points, isn't it?

I have sung in choirs, some of whose members genuinely think it doesn't matter if a three minute piece drops in pitch by a semitone or more. That attitude drives me mad.

I absolutely agree with this. English amateur choirs in particular have a tendency to rest on non-existent laurels in my experience. I suspect that it comes down to our much trumpeted ability to sight-read, which certainly means that British singers learn to sing the notes of a piece quicker than many continental counterparts. It's rather like the tortoise and the hare. Scandinavian and Baltic choirs (for example) may be slower to pick up the notes, but that already means that they spend longer on the pieces they sing and thereby become more familiar with them (they are far more likely to learn their repertoire by heart). They therefore bring greater depth to their interpretations, as well as being more likely to sing in tune.

I generalise massively, of course: but I recognise a lot of truth in what Peter Phillips has written, and have found the dismayed reaction to it in some quarters to demonstrate a telling degree of self-satisfaction.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Not all the profession UK choirs are that great either, though PP's own choir doesn't fall into that category.

Re pitch dropping, was once in a choir that did this, but I blatantly refused to drop myself, so that the work ending was bitonal (and I was accused of being sharp - until I asked for the chord. )

[mopsus]

I haven't been in a choral competition since my primary school choir entered the local Eisteddfod, but people who've done them say how enjoyable they are. One local choir used to enter international competitions quite frequently. There's a certain kind of piece that is good competition fodder, because it shows off various skills of the choir to a high degree, and this choir's repertoire contained quite a few such pieces, which would be programmed in concerts. They weren't always the most rewarding to listen to.

I am perhaps fortunate in that the choirs I've sung in take tuning and the like seriously without competing directly against others. (There is of course fierce competition between choirs in the area - to win the largest audiences).

[Vox Humana]

I suspect that it comes down to our much trumpeted ability to sight-read, which certainly means that British singers learn to sing the notes of a piece quicker than many continental counterparts. It's rather like the tortoise and the hare. Scandinavian and Baltic choirs (for example) may be slower to pick up the notes, but that already means that they spend longer on the pieces they sing and thereby become more familiar with them

Tell me about it. Having stupidly signed up to this approach in my youth, I now have a big problem with it. I have actually met people who think that managing to get through a piece with an "ad hoc" choir more or less sight-singing the right notes while remembering a few random comments about e.g. dynamics is "what it's all about". The idea of crafting a finely-tuned interpretation doesn't enter into it because there isn't time. I have also encountered rather a lot of singers who dislike operating on any other basis ("I get bored with rehearsing pieces"). I am minded of one concert I went to a few months ago, sung by an occasional choir, where all the right notes were sung in the right order and at the right pitch, but the performances were all completely shapeless and lifeless. Why would anyone be satisfied with perpetrating such a boring musical experience? I wonder to what extent this reliance on sight reading is a product of the cathedral back row mentality where lay clerks are used to bowling up at the right hour, picking up the music and "it all just happens". At least with time lay clerks gain the benefit of familiarity.

[DracoM]

Boy, AND are both u-t-c-tenor and VH dead right on this - amateur choirs spending far too little time on what they too disparagingly call 'note-bashing' and what lifeless perfs that leads to. Hear! Hear!

[jean]

And how exactly would more 'government funding' solve this problem? It's irrelevant to amateur choirs.

[mopsus]

Tell me about it. Having stupidly signed up to this approach in my youth, I now have a big problem with it. I have actually met people who think that managing to get through a piece with an "ad hoc" choir more or less sight-singing the right notes while remembering a few random comments about e.g. dynamics is "what it's all about". The idea of crafting a finely-tuned interpretation doesn't enter into it because there isn't time. I have also encountered rather a lot of singers who dislike operating on any other basis ("I get bored with rehearsing pieces"). I am minded of one concert I went to a few months ago, sung by an occasional choir, where all the right notes were sung in the right order and at the right pitch, but the performances were all completely shapeless and lifeless. Why would anyone be satisfied with perpetrating such a boring musical experience? I wonder to what extent this reliance on sight reading is a product of the cathedral back row mentality where lay clerks are used to bowling up at the right hour, picking up the music and "it all just happens". At least with time lay clerks gain the benefit of familiarity.

I was for a time in a very good choir (not the one I referred to in my previous post) which often performed pieces on the bare minimum of rehearsal. I would think 'Yes this is good, and with these singers it could hardly be otherwise, but it would be so much better if we spent a bit of time on polishing it'. After I left the choir, someone described this approach as the 'Catholic' one (the conductor had been for some years organist at a Catholic church) as opposed to the 'Anglican' one that I favoured. Does anyone think this generalisation holds water? I don't have enough experience singing at Catholic services to say.

[underthecountertenor]

Boy, AND are both u-t-c-tenor and VH dead right on this - amateur choirs spending far too little time on what they too disparagingly call 'note-bashing' and what lifeless perfs that leads to. Hear! Hear!

[underthecountertenor]

And how exactly would more 'government funding' solve this problem? It's irrelevant to amateur choirs.

As I understand Peter Phillips's 'litmus test' point, better professional choirs would set an example to amateur choirs, who would up their game accordingly. I can see the force in that argument too.

[ardcarp]

There is so much truth in what is being said on this thread. I regret to say that nearly all the singing I do nowadays is on the basis of having a black folder chucked at me in the afternoon followed by maybe an hour-and-a-half's rehearsal. This is definitely not ideal (even though more often than not audiences/congregations think it's wonderful) but the harsh reality is that the good singers are often busy people with loads of commitments and can only be coraled [pun intended] on this basis.

Talking of fully professional choirs, on the continent there is more money and much more time for rehearsal. One well-known small group specialising in contemporary repertoire (no prizes for guessing) has recently had the luxury of a week in Luxembourg and a week in Italy with loads of rehearsal time.

Talking of amateur choirs, here is an extract from a crit:

..... the concert [Verdi Requiem], which also included Walton's Cornation Te Deum, enjoyed much more 'dress-rehearsal' time than is usual for such events, with sessions for both choir, orchestra and soloists spanning Friday evening to Sunday morning.

This is exceptional in the UK, but the event was deliberately planned on continental-style preparation. It cost £15,000+ to put on.

[jean]

I see a real mismatch between what PP says here and what I heard at the competition, to which he makes plentiful reference..

He says he wasn't surprised a British choir didn't win the competition in 2014 and 2017

But a British choir was the overall winner in 2015 - that's one winner out of only three altogether. And was he surprised that a British choir won its heat in 2017, in competition with two non-British choirs?

That the public didn't turn out for Herreweghe is worrying. I don't know why - if I'd been in London I'd have been there.

[jean]

...nearly all the singing I do nowadays is on the basis of having a black folder chucked at me in the afternoon followed by maybe an hour-and-a-half's rehearsal...

Yes but that's because you're a tenor!

The rest of them have probably been preparing for months!