CE Chapel of Royal Holloway Chapel, University of London 8.xi.17

**DracoM** · 08-11-17, 00:03

Reminder: today @ 3.30 p.m.

**jonfan** · 08-11-17, 16:36

I turned my radio on just as the Ave Maria introit started and was transported far away to another world, which was balm for the soul, where troubles and worldly concerns are left aside for awhile. The singing today was beautiful in sound and harmony, taking time over delivery. Stunning psalm singing, again beautifully balanced with close attention to the words. The Rachmaninov excerpts were well performed in an English Choral tradition sound without, thank goodness, attempting to sound like a Russian choir. Great stab at the low notes by the young basses. The Leighton Responses complemented the Russian theme very well in a strange way. All was fine until the anthem, which didn’t fit the rest of the music or service at all. Would a Rachmaninov Vesper fit in a Rolling Stones’ concert? Why try the opposite then?! A pity as I thought the rest of the service exquisite, special listening.

**UmTheMagnificat** · 08-11-17, 16:47

Originally posted by jonfan View Post

All was fine until the anthem, which didn’t fit the rest of the music or service at all. Would a Rachmaninov Vesper fit in a Rolling Stones’ concert? Why try the opposite then?! A pity as I thought the rest of the service exquisite, special listening.

A fair comment, but I would argue a Rolling Stones concert is not comparable to a sacred office, whereas the Jackson is set to sacred text, for a choir, who are within their rights to perform it in office.

I agree however, masterful psalm singing and musicianship throughout.

**Alison** · 08-11-17, 17:33

Really enjoyed the anthem, fresh, striking and spiritually uplifting.

Only the dull and unfelt intercessions spoilt the hour for me.

**jonfan** · 08-11-17, 17:39

Originally posted by UmTheMagnificat View Post

A fair comment, but I would argue a Rolling Stones concert is not comparable to a sacred office, whereas the Jackson is set to sacred text, for a choir, who are within their rights to perform it in office.

I agree however, masterful psalm singing and musicianship throughout.

Yes I agree the choir is within their rights to perform whatever sacred text they deem suitable for worship. I support new music for the liturgy wholeheartedly. If GJ’s idea was to jolt us out of our comfort zone then he succeeded magnificently.

**UmTheMagnificat** · 08-11-17, 17:45

Originally posted by jonfan View Post

If GJ’s idea was to jolt us out of our comfort zone then he succeeded magnificently.

I think that was absolutely the point!

**DracoM** · 08-11-17, 18:43

I fear I had a problem or two over this service.
1. Choir were disciplined, good top, which rather dominated.
2. BUT Rachmaninov surely seeks to exploit the sound spectrum he knew back home, and for the RH basses and tenors to be, yes, indeed, estimably valiant, in tune etc was fine, BUT IMO lack of sufficient weight and sonority tended to tame the music, make it English, and thus diluted its impact. Excellent choir but why Rachmaninov / Russian Orthodox settings of the canticles - thus ironically showing its limitations? OK, BBC current thematic obsession in play - were the choir required to jump through that hoop?
3. Everything was taken pretty slowly. If you have a big Russian sound, then that pace was fine. So, RH, again good singing yes, but.....after a while I began to wonder if this was more concert in which the choir were scheduled to show admirable discipline, cohesiveness, tonal purity - and indeed they did, up to a point.
4. Agree with reservations about the fraffly English parish church surroundings from celebrant / prayer leader etc. Odd in that context.
5. Didn't quite see what the guitar added to the Jackson anthem at all, plus MacMillan soprano grace notes fidgets. Otherwise, a sensitive setting of the words. Thank you, Mr Jackson.

**jonfan** · 08-11-17, 19:44

I think, DracoM, we're in danger of going down the authentic dead end here, that only Russian basses can sing Russian music properly, only boy trebles can sing Bach top lines and only castrati sing certain operatic roles by Handel. RH were musical throughout and IMO did justice to the music and composers in all they sang today. I'll have another listen to the Jackson in light of comments above. I didn't notice the prayers at all today, so moved by the singing. Mentioning Macmillan again: he said on a very interesting Desert Island Discs recently that one perceives the eternal through the occasional crevice. There were several crevices in today's offering.

**DracoM** · 08-11-17, 19:54

I'm glad you took pleasure in both the service and the singing.

Didn't realise that 'authentic' meant 'dead ends'. Must bear it in mind.

**UmTheMagnificat** · 08-11-17, 20:24

Originally posted by DracoM View Post

I fear I had a problem or two over this service.
1. Choir were disciplined, good top, which rather dominated.
2. BUT Rachmaninov surely seeks to exploit the sound spectrum he knew back home, and for the RH basses and tenors to be, yes, indeed, estimably valiant, in tune etc was fine, BUT IMO lack of sufficient weight and sonority tended to tame the music, make it English, and thus diluted its impact. Excellent choir but why Rachmaninov / Russian Orthodox settings of the canticles - thus ironically showing its limitations? OK, BBC current thematic obsession in play - were the choir required to jump through that hoop?
3. Everything was taken pretty slowly. If you have a big Russian sound, then that pace was fine. So, RH, again good singing yes, but.....after a while I began to wonder if this was more concert in which the choir were scheduled to show admirable discipline, cohesiveness, tonal purity - and indeed they did, up to a point.
4. Agree with reservations about the fraffly English parish church surroundings from celebrant / prayer leader etc. Odd in that context.
5. Didn't quite see what the guitar added to the Jackson anthem at all, plus MacMillan soprano grace notes fidgets. Otherwise, a sensitive setting of the words. Thank you, Mr Jackson.

I think, DracoM, that you know not what you want.

You seem to object to an English choir singing ‘Russian Music’ in an ‘English way’, when we are talking about an Anglican choral office, whose precursor originated in Rome, further refined in the Eastern Orthodox Church (Slavic and Greek- Vespers/All-Night Vigil used interchangeably in office; seems fitting then to sing the Rach in a modern version of this office?), uses Latin texts, and includes motets and canticles frequently sung in foreign languages, with no presumption to sound like a choir from any particular country...

Perhaps you might listen to a Russian choir singing evensong, and comment on their ‘Englishness’? Or not; their attempts on the likes of Howells and Sumsion doth butter no parsnips?

**DracoM** · 08-11-17, 20:46

Choice, choice......where to start?

**subcontrabass** · 08-11-17, 20:57

Originally posted by DracoM View Post

2. BUT Rachmaninov surely seeks to exploit the sound spectrum he knew back home, and for the RH basses and tenors to be, yes, indeed, estimably valiant, in tune etc was fine, BUT IMO lack of sufficient weight and sonority tended to tame the music, make it English, and thus diluted its impact. Excellent choir but why Rachmaninov / Russian Orthodox settings of the canticles - thus ironically showing its limitations? OK, BBC current thematic obsession in play - were the choir required to jump through that hoop?
3. Everything was taken pretty slowly.

"were the choir required to jump through that hoop?" - inside information given to me indicates that the answer to that is "yes".

I found the introit sounded rather distant. Generally the dynamic range indicated in the score for the Rachmaninoff pieces seemed to be missing - it should go from ppp to ff. Whether that was the fault of the choir or the engineers I do not know.

More Rachmaninoff next week.

**DracoM** · 08-11-17, 21:43

<< - inside information given to me indicates that the answer to that is "yes". >>

Aha! I did wonder...........!!

<< I found the introit sounded rather distant. Generally the dynamic range indicated in the score for the Rachmaninoff pieces seemed to be missing - it should go from ppp to ff. Whether that was the fault of the choir or the engineers I do not know. >>

Indeed, yes, the introit seemed to be quiet, but then someone seemed to up the levels.
I had a score as I listened too, and felt much as you did. I've heard this sung by English-based choirs several times, and they managed more drama / hush / plangency / assertion than we had today. Was it the pace? Or that the DOM wanted to smooth out the contours and make it very leagto??

Listened again, and just a bit puzzled oop 'ere.

**jonfan** · 08-11-17, 21:59

I wonder if someone from RH can confirm this mysterious 'inside information'. The choir seemed to revel in the music rather than suffering with pieces they didn't want to sing. I've listened to the whole of the service again through headphones and thought the engineering excellent and perfectly balanced. The DOM stressed the smoothness and beauty of the Rach pieces every time. The only edits I detected were some gaps between the music and spoken sections, to save time obviously. On hearing the Jackson for a second time I thoroughly enjoyed it. It just goes to show how first impressions aren't always reliable, or that impressions on these boards aren't the same either, thank goodness.

CE Chapel of Royal Holloway Chapel, University of London 8.xi.17

CE Chapel of Royal Holloway Chapel, University of London 8.xi.17

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