Choral Vespers Wed, Oct 4th 2017

[DracoM]

Most sources and authorities seem to be suggesting that the traditional structures of worship and liturgy are under some threat, either from conscious initiatives and strategies or because in many [most?] quarters, attendance at traditional church services is declining for a variety of reasons. Central to those more traditional forms is music, music that has amplified and re-expressed the liturgy and the faith-base behind it. Much of that music is felt to be among the most memorably serious ever written.

The practitioners i.e. choirs etc who bring that music to the populations are seen as both guardians, animators and refreshers of the liturgy. Choirs, organists are those guardians, and the fact that many if not most choirs are made up of the young, in many cases, the very young, is seen and heard as a sign of both hope and legacy-building. Therefore, if such structures are seen to be tampered with, undermined, diluted, swept away altogether, many will feel that is not just the music that is lost but something central the music has over centuries re-energised and re-expressed for us. Any lack of care for the well-being of those choirs, or the demolition or disparagement of them arouses fierce loyalties and defence. The Choir threads are almost universally united in this fierce loyalty, and fierce loyalties can often be expressed in fierce and fearful language.

The problem facing all in this fragile mosaic of interests is how to evolve without loss.

[Pulcinella]

Attendance at York Minster CE services seems pretty good, but then we are a tourist city, and it is plain that the service is foreign territory to many of the congregation.
They are always warmly welcomed, and steered in the right direction (where to sit and what to follow in the service sheet, BCP psalms, etc).
Now if only the CofE would sort out its attitude to women (and gay) clergy, and same-sex marriage, I might feel more comfortable going there more often myself.

[Dafydd y G.W.]

Most sources and authorities seem to be suggesting that the traditional structures of worship and liturgy are under some threat, either from conscious initiatives and strategies or because in many [most?] quarters, attendance at traditional church services is declining for a variety of reasons. Central to those more traditional forms is music, music that has amplified and re-expressed the liturgy and the faith-base behind it. Much of that music is felt to be among the most memorably serious ever written.

The practitioners i.e. choirs etc who bring that music to the populations are seen as both guardians, animators and refreshers of the liturgy. Choirs, organists are those guardians, and the fact that many if not most choirs are made up of the young, in many cases, the very young, is seen and heard as a sign of both hope and legacy-building. Therefore, if such structures are seen to be tampered with, undermined, diluted, swept away altogether, many will feel that is not just the music that is lost but something central the music has over centuries re-energised and re-expressed for us. Any lack of care for the well-being of those choirs, or the demolition or disparagement of them arouses fierce loyalties and defence. The Choir threads are almost universally united in this fierce loyalty, and fierce loyalties can often be expressed in fierce and fearful language.

The problem facing all in this fragile mosaic of interests is how to evolve without loss.

On the other hand, there has been a fair amount of publicity recently for the fact that attendance at cathedral worship, and evensong in particular, is bucking a general trend and increasing. The increase is all the more impressive for being unexpected, and the traditional character of cathedral (and "cathedral style") worship is widely celebrated as the reason for this success.

"At the end of the last century, cathedrals were faring no better than churches, with attendances falling sometimes by 5 per cent a year. With the new century, everything changed. Worship in almost all 42 Anglican cathedrals began to rise, and it is now up by a third in a decade."

http://https://www.spectator.co.uk/2...s-are-soaring/

cf. also

http://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/ne...g-for-Britains

http://http://catholicityandcovenant...-evensong.html

[Nevilevelis]

[QUOTE=mw963;642756]tried and tested/well worn fare.[QUOTE]

E.g. age-old, so-called 'Gregorian' chant (actually Frankish and Gallician, amalgamated under Pope Gregory) and polyphony. But you're just talking about EVENSONG, which is a term with an interesting history. In the Use of sarum, Vespers and Compline were generally sung consecutively. During Henry VIII’s reign they were known colloquially as ‘Evensong’; a pre-Reformation term that has remained in use despite the Book of Common Prayer redesignating them as Evening Prayer.

As much as I love Choral Evensong (I sing it regularly, and have written much music for it, some of it published), the pallette cleanser of chant and polyphony is welcome, especially in a proper liturgical context.

light_calibre_baritone's response to you back then is worth repeating, if I may.

"The standard of liturgical choral singing in this country is now so high that, in my opinion, the BBC seem to give us quite a broad selection of choirs, from the cathedral to the choral course; and let's not forget that many of these broadcasts showcase the singers that you'll be hearing in the future, and as such this broad spectrum of music making helps give them experience of what life as a church musician can be... VARIED.

Your post does have a whiff of "it was better in my day" kinda lament, but I for one am quite excited by the development of church singing in this country and am pleased it's still being broadcast regularly.

I'm sure http://www.ctcc.org.uk would like another member (if you're desperate)."

[Dafydd y G.W.]

Sarum Rite, Vespers and Compline were generally sung consecutively. During Henry VIII’s reign they were known colloquially as ‘Evensong’; a pre-Reformation term that has remained in use despite the Book of Common Prayer redesignating them as Evening Prayer

"Evensong" is also used in the B.C.P. and "Evening Prayer" is not so much a redesignation as an Englishing of "Vespers" (so a synonym).

To be ultra-pedantic, there is no such thing as the Sarum Rite, it's the Sarum Use - i.e. a "use" (local variant) of the Roman Rite!

[Nevilevelis]

"Evensong" is also used in the B.C.P. and "Evening Prayer" is not so much a redesignation as an Englishing of "Vespers" (so a synonym).

To be ultra-pedantic, there is no such thing as the Sarum Rite, it's the Sarum Use - i.e. a "use" (local variant) of the Roman Rite!

Please don't degrade the point I was making by picking pedantic holes in it.

[DracoM]

I don't think it's degrading, is it? It's a sort of footnote to help us understand YOUR point more fully. Well, that's how it seemed to me!

[mw963]

And to repeat - and perhaps clarify - my position, frankly I find chant and polyphony actually incredibly dull nevilevelis, except in very very small quantities. I can't help it, I don't really care how impeccable its pedigree, it bores me rigid. For me it's not a question of working at it in the manner of an acquired taste, it's just the way it is.

I make no apology, I don't expect you to agree, I certainly don't want a lecture about how limited my tastes are, that's just the way it is.

For me the increasing "variety" of CE broadcasts is not pleasing. But I have to live with it. And of course there's the odd unexpected gem.

As I say, please no lectures about "retraining" or "re-education" for poor benighted little old me, I know what some of you are like, and I'm happy in my ignorance.