Choir and Organ Sunday 24th Sept

[DracoM]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b095t77q

An interesting question raised by the programme: why have Baltic choirs made such an impression in the last decade?

The Latvian Radio Choir with a vision of their homeland.
Funeral offertory by French opera composer André Campra.
The Bach Choir and a lost masterpiece by Charles Villiers Stanford.

[subcontrabass]

Can anyone explain the purpose of this programme?

With the new format I gave it a try. The result is only marginally less disappointing than the previous incarnation. What we got was essentially an hour of "easy listening". Nine short works (of which only eight are listed on the playlist), with no sense of an overall theme or stucture - just another programme of CD tracks. A little thought might provide something more coherent by focussing each programme on, say, a particular choir, or a single composer, or some identifiable portion of repertoire. Sections of "Through the Night" are often much more clearly focussed than this.

The only real improvement from the past was that we got less chat and more music, even though some of the chat was still a bit "gushing".

I see that the "organ" part of the programme is being ghettoized into one Sunday per month. Next Sunday's does not look very promising: Duruflé, Rossini (), and "a major work by Bach". Why can't we be told precisely what is planned so that we might choose to listen to some (or all, according to taste) of it without having to wait until after the broadcast to decide whether or not to bother?

[DracoM]

Why have Baltic choirs made such an impression in the last decade? Raised a few minutes in, and on the blurb for the show online.
Yes, well, it's very good question.
What a shame that at no point beyond playing random tracks involving some Baltic choirs was there the slightest attempt to answer it.

[Frances_iom]

I listened to most of the 'Organ' edition this afternoon (tho missed the opening few minutes) - ok it's good to have some organ music but why not a short recital on one instrument possibly including some discussion about that specific instrument given by someone who unlike SMP actually knows something about organs and presumably unlike her is not apparently bored by it. I guess that it is down as yet another easy listening slot as is the majority of R3 these days.

[MrGongGong]

given by someone who unlike SMP actually knows something about organs

I guess in her time as a choral scholar at Cambridge she probably didn't hear any organ music or meet anyone who plays the instrument

[ardcarp]

At least R3 has gone some way to responding to many moans (some on this Forum) about the lack of an organ music slot. Interesting that they have chosen Choir & Organ as the new name, copying the well-known publication:

http://www.rhinegold.co.uk/rhinegold-publishing/magazines/choir-organ/current-issue/

The format may not be be everyone's taste (is it ever?) but at least aficionados will know to tune in on he first Sunday of the month. Give the programme time to develop.

[DracoM]

Would organ fans like to hear more of the registrations being used at times?

[Frances_iom]

I guess in her time as a choral scholar at Cambridge she probably didn't hear any organ music or meet anyone who plays the instrument

if she does then she hid any relevant knowledge very well - maybe if she was instructed to avoid anything that demonstrated knowledge above that of a random R2.5 listener then this would explain what I heard coming over as a very bored presenter just going thru the motions.

Many years ago at the 'ungodly' hour of 8am on Sunday mornings there used to be an excellent 15-20min section making use of a guest who knew the details which looked at the congregation, church + music (inc organ) from various congregations usually in London area - but I suspect such intelligent programmes are too expensive these days.

[ardcarp]

There is, by the way, no reason why an Oxbridge choral scholar should know much about organs! SM-P, obviously an intelligent musician in her own right, is employed to present R3 (and occasionally BBCTV) programmes in a certain way. There is an accepted house-style (informal, cuddly, everything's wonderful) which she no doubt has to follow. Those with a certain knowledge (of organs, choral music, whatever) may feel talked-down-to or patronised. I suppose the producers feel they have to strike a balance between the cognoscenti and Mr/Ms Everyman/woman. Isn't life complicated?

[Frances_iom]

[QUOTE=ardcarp;641501... Isn't life complicated?[/QUOTE]yes but no reason why we are pap fed dumbed down programming - there is (or was) a generally excellent set of CDs issued by Priory 'Great Organs' series wch had most if not all British Cathedral organs + many more together with an 'Historic Organ' series - usually the repertoire was chosen to illustrate the strengths or features of the organ - if they employed an A-level music student for a couple of hours a month such would be able to select out 40 mins or so from each CD together which together with a short interview with current organist and/or restorer would make IMO an interesting program they could include photo, technical details + brief history on the website.
I was annoyed at the Thomas Trotter concert interval talk in which the technician who was responsible for much was given short shrift as the presenter again either knew nothing or charitably was told to act dumb and never developed any idea.

[DracoM]

What slightly baffled me was that in reality what re-casting The Choir as Choir and Organ does NOT mean we so far learn much about the Organ per se at all. R3 seems to think that 'playing tracks' with an organ at the centre of the music making ticks the box.

Given that the Organ is one of the most fascinating, complex, endlessly varied technical / musical inventions, AND one of the most widely heard in churches / schools etc all over the nation, it seems inexplicable to me that a programme at least in part devoted to it does NOT have much / anything to say about the intricacies and implications of registration choice / techniques of playing. You get any two organists into a conversation and within nanoseconds, that is ONLY what they will be talking about!!

The programme could easily find an expert who can speak lucidly and entertainingly with illustrations about the instrument and sketch in useful background to help and illuminate. 'Playing tracks' is NOT revealing.

[underthecountertenor]

What slightly baffled me was that in reality what re-casting The Choir as Choir and Organ does NOT mean we so far learn much about the Organ per se at all. R3 seems to think that 'playing tracks' with an organ at the centre of the music making ticks the box.

Given that the Organ is one of the most fascinating, complex, endlessly varied technical / musical inventions, AND one of the most widely heard in churches / schools etc all over the nation, it seems inexplicable to me that a programme at least in part devoted to it does NOT have much / anything to say about the intricacies and implications of registration choice / techniques of playing. You get any two organists into a conversation and within nanoseconds, that is ONLY what they will be talking about!!

The programme could easily find an expert who can speak lucidly and entertainingly with illustrations about the instrument and sketch in useful background to help and illuminate. 'Playing tracks' is NOT revealing.

But we were told that Wayne Marshall was an (the?) 'organist extraordinaire'. That was news to me, so I guess I must have been enlightened by the programme.

[Frances_iom]

But we were told that Wayne Marshall was an (the?) 'organist extraordinaire'. That was news to me, so I guess I must have been enlightened but the programme.

glad you learnt something so it apparently worked for one listener (is there an end sarcasm tag anywhere?) but to return to DracoM's point - it occurred to me sometime ago that Choral Evensong generally has an organ backing up the choir - why not use the same recording equipment to put together a program 'starring' not the 'organists extraordinaire' but those who provide the bulk of the music in the various churches visited - probably not all would be natural radio performers but many also have a teaching role and could certainly suggest a short 40min or so concert that both illustrated the features of their organ and the repertoire it worked well in but also could comment on what was difficult or didn't work eg due acoustics of the building, size of instrument etc

[ardcarp]

I have to admit that inwardly I agree with most of the sentiments expressed above about the inadequacies of the programme and its presentation. I was just trying to give the Beeb 5/10 for trying! As Draco hints, when two or three organists are met together, the conversation can get nerdy, and I guess the prducers of C&O are wary of that. There is a general trend NOT to get technical in any sort of programme. Horizon for instance is clearly terrified of letting any solid information get in the way of the whoosh/bang computer-generated effects of earthquakes, waves, the weather, the galaxy, whatever.

[DracoM]

But given how hugely registration affects the sound / intention conveyed and impact of what an organ reveals, surely there has to be some attempt to wrest organs form 'nerds' and be more forthcoming about different registrations used for the SAME piece, for example, with adequate explanation by an expert?

Car owners are forever talking technicalities, computer /'nerds' likewise, and actually, if you want to intrigue many, many kids, then telling them how you can make a difference by exploring potentialities, stamping some of their own individual interpretation on the playing of a piece would be pretty attractive, I'd say.