CE Chichester Cathedral 15th June 2011

[DracoM]

OK, thanks on the Halsey and for info on the organ. So a Cavaillé-Coll sound palate would make a considerable difference?

[Contre Bombarde]

OK, thanks on the Halsey and for info on the organ. So a Cavaillé-Coll sound palate would make a considerable difference?

An emphatic "Yes". CF's music was written with the sound palette of the C-C in Sainte-Clotilde, Paris in mind and he made his registrational demands based on that relatively small 3 manual instrument. The organ has been altered since Franck's day but a very good fist can be made of the music on virtually any C-C instrument as the tonal colours will be close to those Franck knew. The Récit-Expressif (Swell organ) at Ste. Clotilde was small and, if I remember correctly from literature, had no mixture or 16p foundation stop at that time but did have both Hautbois and Trompette stops at 8p which CF used as solo voices. To reproduce these sounds on other builders' instruments would require some experimentation to achieve the right sort of balance and texture, by maybe not as CF suggests, coupling a 8p Bourdon to the reed but leaving it on its own. It depends entirely on the instrument one is considering.

This is not to say that one should not or cannot play Franck, or indeed Dupré, Widor, Vierne or Guilmant etc etc on English organs or that one should not be innovative with registration. I do think though, that when a composer specifies a registration to the extent of naming individual stops one should try to achieve as close a match as reasonably possible. I did not hear Tim Ravalde's voluntary but am absolutely certain that it would have been a thoroughly musical performance from one of our leading young organists.

I think that more difficulty can be encountered when trying to play English music on a C-C; for example Howells' Psalm Preludes. I once was persuaded to play the complete set on a large Parisian C-C instrument and thought it sounded distinctly odd. The registration aids on a C-C (ventils operating on split soundboards etc) do not lend themselves to the style of music and the poor registrants were charging around the console like bluebottles. A revised and modernised C-C such as that in Notre-Dame de Paris, would probably be much more satisfactory for such music if one had to play it on a French organ.

On the other hand I would be quite happy to play any Romantic French composer's on for example, a Willis or Harrison as long it had sufficient resources for the job in hand, i.e. a sufficiently broad colour palette to get reasonably close to the original intention.

DracoM, have a quick trawl on YouTube as I'm sure that there are plenty of examples of Franck on C-C instruments available.

I could drone on ad infinitum about this subject but must not. Eurostar and les parents dans la loi wait for no man.

[ardcarp]

There you are, Draco...I knew I'd start someone off.

[DracoM]

Huge thanks to all for instruction.

BTW, in no way did I mean to disparage T.Ravalde's musicianship at all - it was the piece that refused to delight, not the player!

The debate about C-C vs other makers and the repertoires composed for each feels a bit like the boy trebles vs girls vs women on top lines. All sing the same notes, but make them differently, have different qualities, AND that raises the vexed question as to what sound the original composers had in their mind's ear when they wrote.

Each type of voice has its own characteristic and idiosyncratic contours - eg a boy's voice has generically all kinds of hitches and 'breaks' in it that girls / women do not have. My own contention FWIW is that composers of other ages deliberately, consciously or uconsciously, exploited these contours to create different colorations of text, such that hearing that same music sung by girls / women changes the character of the music. Sorry - bit of a hobby horse.

I can only imagine that organ buffs would make very similar statements about the differences to be heard with a C-C organ being employed to play Howells, as against Widor or Franck. Yes, the same notes, but the differences are striking to the ear of the aficionado, and playing the great French repertoire on an instrument other than a C-C can even come to feel a bit heretical.

[BBMmk2]

Thank you DracoM, regarding the Hawkins Te Deum That's about as far as I got to!! Anyother takers, kmuch appreciated.

[ardcarp]

Contre Bombarde

You may be interested in this:

http://www.letelegramme.com/local/cotes-d-armor/guingamp/begard/begard/les-amis-de-l-orgue-des-projets-presentes-aux-elus-29-01-2010-759216.php

A half-Belgian friend of mine who lives in Begard (acute on first 'e') in Brittany was instrumental in getting this fine, small and little-known Cavaille Coll restored. It makes all the right noises. I've got a CD of the opening recital, but alas it's not commercially available.

[muticus]

The very pleasant one manual 3 stop box of whistles in our village church is quite adequate for the demands of our regular congregation of 10. A recent bride requested the Widor...... I suppose the phrase 'horses for courses' covers the case - whatever repetoire is in question?

[ardcarp]

As in bridle march?

[muticus]

Indeed - the more so as the lass in question was of distinctly 'equine' countenance!

[Contre Bombarde]

Contre Bombarde

You may be interested in this:

http://www.letelegramme.com/local/cotes-d-armor/guingamp/begard/begard/les-amis-de-l-orgue-des-projets-presentes-aux-elus-29-01-2010-759216.php

A half-Belgian friend of mine who lives in Begard (acute on first 'e') in Brittany was instrumental in getting this fine, small and little-known Cavaille Coll restored. It makes all the right noises. I've got a CD of the opening recital, but alas it's not commercially available.

Thank you ardcarp, that is fascinating. These smaller C-C organs are easily the equal of their larger brethren as far as the quality of the sound and construction are concerned and it good that they are being shown the respect and love they deserve. The few that I have encountered have been exactly suited to their church; ACC clearly had a real talent for building the right organ for an individual building. Much like Father Willis over here; his small village church organs are a delight.

The Orgue de Choeur in St Sulpice, Paris is a Mutin/Cavaillé-Coll of 21 stops over 2 manuals and pedals and is easily capable of filling that enormous building with sound yet still has the quiet subtlety needed to accompany the quieter parts of the liturgy. It does tend, naturally enough I suppose, to be overshadowed by its large cousin at the west end, but I would urge any interested visitors to hear it. One of the Titulaires would be delighted to demonstrate it if time and liturgical constraints allow. Either that, or go to the http://www.paroisse-saint-sulpice-pa.../paroisse.aspx 10.30 Messe Solenelle.

Another quiet spell from me; much to learn before the summer.

[dj02468]

Very nice sung service from Chichester - well done to the singers there. Is it just me, though, or was the Cesar Franck something of an idiosyncratic performance. Rubato is one thing, but grinding to a virtual standstill is something else again. I'm afraid the un-rhythmic tempi left me quite disappointed.

[ardcarp]

I wouldn't want Franck's ouevres to be judged by Piece Heroique which is a slightly melodramatic work and one that seems to call for some 'interpretation' shall we say. The Trois Chorales (and especially No 3 in a minor) are much more thought-out pieces, as is the Prelude, Fugue and Variations.

Listening again to the broadcast today a fewe more things struck me about the choir. Yes, the trebles sounded young, but they were cutting the mustard and were, I think, beautifully prepared. The diction in the psalms was excellent. The choir as a whole came over as having a very 'clean' sound. The men seemed to be using very little vibrato...and were clearly singing as blenders not as soloists. This may have been a legacy of Alan, but maybe this is something Sarah B. is actively fostering. The boys' sound has changed a bit, I think. Alan was one of the few who kept to a very trad head-voice. I think a little more individuality has crept in to their sound. If some of them have another year or two to go, it should be interesting.

My only quibble with the service was the phrase among the (otherwise dignified and apt) prayers:

"He [Richard of Chichester] engaged with the issues of his day"

[DracoM]

Similarly, listening again, I was struck by the subtle way the psalm tones sequenced, and by the sure-foooted way the choir led from one to the other pretty seamlessly. There is a certain drama in Ps 78 too that the sequence brought out. Agree with ardcarp about diction. Exemplary.