CE Durham Cathedral Wed, July 5th 2017

[vinteuil]

- although I realize that all such posts are not entirely "serious".

... and indeed, in some cases, "not all such posts are entirely 'serious'... "


.

[ahinton]

If it wasn't for the 'churchy stuff' you'd get applause after each item...and who wants that?

Oh, please let's not get on to the vexed question of applause between movements and such...

[teamsaint]

Hmmmm ... depends on how you define "strongly held belief": there are (at least) two very fine examples form English composers who did not have strong beliefs in the sentiments of the Mass, but believed very strongly in the Musical Traditions which had emerged from the religious beliefs behind the verbal texts.


But I can listen to Musical settings of the Mass texts outside a liturgical setting any time I like. I do not wish to listen to the non-Musical parts of the liturgy (which, for many, is the more important part) so I do not listen to CE. It seems to me to miss the point of the programme to wish that the "churchy" bits could be left out of a broadcast Church Service - although I realize that all such posts are not entirely "serious".

Very broadly, and with an understanding that not everything is done with specific conviction, ( however you care to define that).

If a composer is commissioned to write a liturgical piece, there is a two step process in the transmission or understanding of the belief system underpinning, Commissioner, composer, listener, with plenty of room for difference and change, but which rather pushes each , into an acceptance of different views of the material .

Anyway, I agree with you point about leaving out the churchy bits rather missing the point of the thing.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... and indeed, in some cases, "not all such posts are entirely 'serious'... "
.

Oh. Erm. Yes ... indeed.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

If a composer is commissioned to write a liturgical piece, there is a two step process in the transmission or understanding of the belief system underpinning, Commissioner, composer, listener, with plenty of room for difference and change, but which rather pushes each , into an acceptance of different views of the material .

I agree - but composers also write settings of the Mass without a commission for a liturgical setting: in the case of Ferneyhough's Missa Brevis, the (uncommissioned, I believe) work was conceived of as one for concert performance by professional adult singers. The words were chosen because of their familiarity for any singers wishing to perform the work: with so much to work on with the pitches, rhythms, and textures, they at least wouldn't have the additional problem of sorting out what the words were.

[jean]

Oh, please let's not get on to the vexed question of applause between movements and such...

Why not? It's extremely relevant to this discussion.

[teamsaint]

I agree - but composers also write settings of the Mass without a commission for a liturgical setting: in the case of Ferneyhough's Missa Brevis, the (uncommissioned, I believe) work was conceived of as one for concert performance by professional adult singers. The words were chosen because of their familiarity for any singers wishing to perform the work: with so much to work on with the pitches, rhythms, and textures, they at least wouldn't have the additional problem of sorting out what the words were.

Interesting example, which led me to this 5 against 4 piece about it, which no doubt you have read .

http://5against4.com/2013/01/17/ferneyhough-week-missa-brevis/

The piece touches on some of the areas I had in mind, and Ferneyhough's thoughts on the enduring power of the Mass text, and its postition as a culture- object present eloquently a couple of points that I was trying to express.

I'll give it a listen asap.

[EdgeleyRob]

If it wasn't for the churchy stuff it would be just a concert of disconnected items.

Fair point,but the only way to get to hear some live Leighton,Howells,Stanford etc etc on the radio

[jonfan]

Fair point,but the only way to get to hear some live Leighton,Howells,Stanford etc etc on the radio

It's surely good to hear such pieces in the context they were written for. Many excellent CDs have been made of Howells and Leighton, plus a recent Choir of Trinity College, Cambridge CD of Stanford. Such richness all at one sitting can be overwhelming; a bit like listening to the best speeches from Shakespeare's plays one after the other. Careful programming can work well such as those by the Sixteen, both in concert and CD, for example their recent Palestrina/Poulenc sequence. Agnostics can approach CE with a 'willing suspension of disbelief' to coin a phrase; and get something of the mystery which has been there for centuries and, thank God, continues. John Rutter 'believes' in religious texts while he's composing music for them, but somehow music from committed believers has something of the transcendent about it, eg. Messiaen, Tavener, Macmillan, Poulenc; and also from performers, for example Suzuki's Bach Cantatas compared to JEG.

[ardcarp]

Oh, please let's not get on to the vexed question of applause between movements and such...

No indeed...but there seems to be a trend towards applauding the final organ voluntary. Does this ever happen at the end of regular church services (which I almost never attend)?
It has crept in, though, when visiting choirs do a CE...with a visiting organist...and while I've no strong objection to this spontaneous show of appreciation, there is something not quite 'right' about it which I can't put into words.

Any thoughts?

[jonfan]

No indeed...but there seems to be a trend towards applauding the final organ voluntary. Does this ever happen at the end of regular church services (which I almost never attend)?
It has crept in, though, when visiting choirs do a CE...with a visiting organist...and while I've no strong objection to this spontaneous show of appreciation, there is something not quite 'right' about it which I can't put into words.

Any thoughts?

No applause in my experience. In our church there's a respectful silence at the start of the final voluntary but conversation begins to rise in volume as people gravitate to the coffee bar at the back. The only piece that keeps everyone quiet and in their places is Elgar's Nimrod.
When I was at college it was the rule everyone sat still and in their places until the voluntary had finished, it being considered an essential part of the service and also to show respect to the performer and the composer.

[Keraulophone]

No indeed...but there seems to be a trend towards applauding the final organ voluntary. Does this ever happen at the end of regular church services (which I almost never attend)?
It has crept in, though, when visiting choirs do a CE...with a visiting organist...and while I've no strong objection to this spontaneous show of appreciation, there is something not quite 'right' about it which I can't put into words.

Any thoughts?

A former Dean of Truro banned this practice, but it has crept back on certain occasions; for instance, when there is a well-known guest organist or the organist of a visiting choir, or, as yesterday, one of the last chances to hear our Acting Assistant DoM before he returns to New Haven, Conn. He played Percy Whitlock's Fantasie Choral No.2 in F# major, sounding sublime on the Father Willis.

[DracoM]

Reminder: today @ 3.30 p.m.

[DracoM]

Quiet, dignified, less-is-more service. Treble line richened and grew confident - Howells in B minor does not sing itself. And fine vol by Francesca Massey.
I hope James Lancelot felt it was a fitting broadcast farewell. Thanks.

[jonfan]

Quiet, dignified, less-is-more service. Treble line richened and grew confident - Howells in B minor does not sing itself. And fine vol by Francesca Massey.
I hope James Lancelot felt it was a fitting broadcast farewell. Thanks.

Agree totally. The whole oozed wisdom and authority. A fitting tribute to JL's time at Durham and best wishes to him for the future.
On a technical note I thought the sound quite fuzzy and remote at times as though the microphones where badly positioned. A shame. Anyone else have this problem?