CE Winchester Cathedral Wed, April 26th 2017

[ardcarp]

But read on for the serious bit.

[Pulcinella]

One of the finest Precentors at St Albans in the last 20 years was a woman but she had little singing voice at all.

That seems quite bizarre to me. Would they appoint a Canon Treasurer who had difficulty adding up?

Consequently she was never allowed to intone with the full choir at weekends although she had to when the boys or girls sang midweek on their own . In fact the post of Precentor was effectively abolished and re-titled Minor Canon ( Liturgy ) and she was outstandingly good at this - the major part of the job.

I can see that Precentor is not a full-time job, but nor should it really be an unimportant role: it's an insult to the choir and director of music if a precentor (male or female) cannot intone sufficiently well, surely?
And I'm with Draco here, quite often finding the note to pick up from when sung an octave higher that little bit more awkward: odd, but true.

[vinteuil]

Well I wasn't aware of it, but I looked it up, and I am now:

'...Bishop John Grandisson...castigated the Cathedral clergy for their irreverent behaviour. Apparently they had a habit of ‘knowingly and purposely throwing drippings or snuffings from their candles’ upon the heads of the choirboys in the stalls below ‘with the purpose of exciting laughter’...

... that was in 1330. Glad to hear it is now in the public domain.

[jean]

... that was in 1330...

Damn. You weren't supposed to notice.

But read on for the serious bit.

I'm sorry that they seem to have got themselves into financial trouble over the Roman Bathhouse project. And an unfortunate tweet. Is there more to it than that?

But should the new precentor take some time off, there are women altos in the choir who will I am sure be all too happy to take over the role, albeit an octave higher.

.

[jean]

And I'm with Draco here, quite often finding the note to pick up from when sung an octave higher that little bit more awkward: odd, but true.

Surely this can only be lack of familiarity?

It's clear from your phrasing that the lower octave is unquestionably normal. But that could change.

[Pulcinella]

Surely this can only be lack of familiarity?

Yes, of course; it's not what I grew up with.

It's clear from your phrasing that the lower octave is unquestionably normal. But that could change.

It is changing!
But that still doesn't mean that the singing should be any less accurate. I just have to get my head round adjusting to the higher pitch.
Perhaps if I'd grown up in a nunnery (I was born in Park House Nursing Home, Waterloo, which was run by RC nursing sisters; an odd choice for a Methodist family, but maybe there wasn't an option in those days!) I wouldn't find it so strange!

[Lizzie]

Lizzie,

Don't you think then that this should have been forseen and that it would have been advisable to take the pressure off by asking one of the Lay Clerks to intone for the broadcast?

I am not against women clergy/Precentors. One of the finest Precentors at St Albans in the last 20 years was a woman but she had little singing voice at all. Consequently she was never allowed to intone with the full choir at weekends although she had to when the boys or girls sang midweek on their own . In fact the post of Precentor was effectively abolished and re-titled Minor Canon ( Liturgy ) and she was outstandingly good at this - the major part of the job.

VCC

This is a service which is sung daily, as one of the daily Offices, not a concert, sung for the radio.mit is something we hear day in and day out, week in and week out. As listeners, we are part of the congregation, who are 'dropping in' to hear what happens as a matter of course. If you want to hear concert perfection, go and buy a ticket for a concert hall!

The Precentor's office at Winchester, is not a Minor Canonry and should not be treated as such. 'Allowed to intone'!! What an absolute insult to both person and position. Our Precentor is a major member of the Clergy and Liturgy Team, a professional musician in her own right, and I simply will not allow such insulting denigration, without response. I've just been to two morning services, one of which was Choral Mattins. If the President at a Choral Eucharist was a male, would it be expected that, should they have a less than perfect ability to sing completely in tune, would a Layclerk be allocated to 'take over', in order not to offend a sensitive ear? I think not and, thank goodness, God wouldn't expect it either! Let's recall who this or any service is sung for please! And yes, I am irritated, and yes, I have remembered why I now so rarely read these boards, let alone comment!

[W.Kearns]

Thanks to all at Winchester for this service. It strikes me that maintaining consistent vigour over the longish season of Easter after the feast day has passed must be quite a challenge, and this was terrific stuff. Yes, there was a melancholy quality in the slow canticles (not a 'funeral procession') but it caught and foreshadowed the sadness of the opening & conclusion of the anthem (what a great piece - btw.) As I say, huge thanks to all concerned, and I thought the Precentor did a great job.

[Lizzie]

I am staying out of this debate. There are many fairly inadequate voices among male precentors. However, if you want to hear a Precentor par excellence, try Evensong at Exeter Cathedral. It is now common knowledge that the Dean and nearly all the clergy (including the Precentor) have either resigned en masse or been given the push. The excellent Martin Shaw (retired Bishop of Argyll and the Isles !) has been parachuted in to keep the ship afloat. And his precenting is to die for. This is one example of how Music, the choir and organists, seem to be the constant factor in cathedral life. It just keeps the cycle of worship going.

I would have hesitated to put this on The Forum a few weeks ago, but as the spat has now been reported in the media, it's out there in the public domain.

Yes, Ardcarp, Bishop Martin is a fine singer and our friends at Exeter were lucky to have him available to them.

[Lizzie]

Thanks to all at Winchester for this service. It strikes me that maintaining consistent vigour over the longish season of Easter after the feast day has passed must be quite a challenge, and this was terrific stuff. Yes, there was a melancholy quality in the slow canticles (not a 'funeral procession') but it caught and foreshadowed the sadness of the opening & conclusion of the anthem (what a great piece - btw.) As I say, huge thanks to all concerned, and I thought the Precentor did a great job.

Thank you, W Kearns. This morning I saw our young soloist from the Twist piece, and I can't really tell you adequately, how absolutely thrilled he and his Mum were, to hear that Joe Twist, who happens to be a Facebook friend of mine, was so impressed and complimentary about his singing of his music. He'd actually got up early in the morning in LA, to listen to the broadcast. That should also be a strong lesson to all of us commenting here, that those singing, playing and directing, also read these boards and do not deserve to be insulted, or have their professional abilities called into question. Would any one of us be prepared to make those comments, face to face,and in public, to the persons involved? If the response is not a completely unqualified, 'Yes', then it should not be made under cover of pseudonym.

[Roger Judd]

Thank you Lizzie, and, as an ex-Winchester Cathedral chorister from the Alwyn Surplice days, I concur with every word you've written, especially the last two sentences of the above posting. Excellent service all round; loved the space in the Stanford, and the 'new' anthem is quite a find. Bravo to all.
RJ

[Lizzie]

Thank you Lizzie, and, as an ex-Winchester Cathedral chorister from the Alwyn Surplice days, I concur with every word you've written, especially the last two sentences of the above posting. Excellent service all round; loved the space in the Stanford, and the 'new' anthem is quite a find. Bravo to all.
RJ

How lovely to know you're also one of the Winchester family, come and visit us if you are able. It will always be your home too! Best. Lizzie

[ardcarp]

I'm sorry that they seem to have got themselves into financial trouble over the Roman Bathhouse project. And an unfortunate tweet. Is there more to it than that?

Well, shall we say various clashes of personalities have been going on for some time. Not the sort of thing which ought go on in a place which espouses Christian values, but then we're all human.

But should the new precentor take some time off.....

Bishop Martin is not 'the new precentor', just acting in that role for the time being, and knowing him, juggling half a dozen other roles too.

Luckily, and despite many financial worries at Exeter, it is my understanding that the music is solidly backed by a healthy foundation.

[Lizzie]

Well, shall we say various clashes of personalities have been going on for some time. Not the sort of thing which ought go on in a place which espouses Christian values, but then we're all human.



Bishop Martin is not 'the new precentor', just acting in that role for the time being, and knowing him, juggling half a dozen other roles too.

Luckily, and despite many financial worries at Exeter, it is my understanding that the music is solidly backed by a healthy foundation.

The musical Team of Tims, Noon and Parsons, are superb and are doing a tremendous job down there! They'll keep everything rocking!