CE Winchester Cathedral Wed, April 26th 2017

[Lizzie]

Thanks Lizzie! 2018 is Portsmouth and 2019 Guildford. Salisbury will have to wait (though we were there in 1998 and 2005)! We loved our week in Winchester; all the staff were so welcoming and warm towards us. My only negative was all the scaffold and wood in the quire, but I guess without that, there wouldn't be a cathedral!
Richard

Yes, the structural stuff has been rather tiresome but, everything is nicely on track and, when you come back, you'll see everything in all its glory. We've recently got back the mortuary chests in Quire, with the bones of the Saxon Kings and Queens in them. The chests look absolutely wonderful now they've been cleaned and restored. The dating, checking and restoration was a huge job but, well worth it, as part of the Nation's history and heritage. Drop by and see them and us, again! Best.

[DracoM]

Or ....ahem.....maybe WAS - Women Against Spelling?
Misogyny', I hesitate to offer'?

[Magnificat]

I don't think VCC was saying that the gender of the Precentor or the octave that she was singing in was adversely affecting the choir.

But what he did say was that she was not a singer of adequate quality to be singing the office and as part of that point, he deliberately stated that it was a female Precentor. Therefore, aligning her gender with her alleged lack of singing ability. That's what I was questioning VCC on.

Nazard

I did say that cathedrals have problems finding any clergy i.e. female or male who are able to sing well these days. The point I was trying to make was that if the Precentor female or male cannot intone adequately one of the lay clerks should do it.

The fact is,as you say, this particular Precentor does not have a voice of adequate quality, at least on this showing, to sing the Office.

VCC

[jean]

Or ....ahem.....maybe WAS - Women Against Spelling?
Misogyny', I hesitate to offer'?

There's something very male about the idea of 'correct' spelling, I always think.

Care with punctuation is never misplaced, though.

[Lizzie]

Fair enough!

[Lizzie]

[QUOTE=Magnificat;617998]Nazard

I did say that cathedrals have problems finding any clergy i.e. female or male who are able to sing well these days. The point I was trying to make was that if the Precentor female or male cannot intone adequately one of the lay clerks should do it.


The fact is,as you say, this particular Precentor does not have a voice of adequate quality, at least on this showing, to sing the Office.

Speaking as one who was there at the time, this was not the case. Sue actually sings well and has an excellent vocal range. She is also a musician in her own right. As my mother used to tell us, there is never any excuse for being unkind, and if one can't say anything 'nice', say nothing. I'm sure that various musicians of considerable note, could make some extremely critical comments about remarks made here but, rather, choose not to do so.

[Nazard]

Nazard

I did say that cathedrals have problems finding any clergy i.e. female or male who are able to sing well these days. The point I was trying to make was that if the Precentor female or male cannot intone adequately one of the lay clerks should do it.

The fact is,as you say, this particular Precentor does not have a voice of adequate quality, at least on this showing, to sing the Office.

VCC

VCC,

I didn't state that I thought this Precentor's voice to be inadequate - I was quoting your sentiment in your original post. I have not heard the broadcast and have no opinion on the matter.

What I did have an opinion on was your pointed reference to the Precentor's gender as if that was pertinent to your point.

[DracoM]

I don't think it is a terribly well-disguised secret that there are a number of people from all manner of religious persuasions who have a difficulty squaring themselves with the notion of women in religious office, is it? Hardly news.

[BasilHarwood]

I don't think it is a terribly well-disguised secret that there are a number of people from all manner of religious persuasions who have a difficulty squaring themselves with the notion of women in religious office, is it? Hardly news.

Quite, but it's a darn backward way of thinking isn't it?

[jean]

I don't think it is a terribly well-disguised secret that there are a number of people from all manner of religious persuasions who have a difficulty squaring themselves with the notion of women in religious office, is it? Hardly news.

Quite, but it's a darn backward way of thinking isn't it?

It isn't news. But to suggest that your 'difficulty' arises only because the women in question can't sing isn't quite honest.

Here's an ingenious take on the problem:

The kids / trebles in the choir I sing with regularly always say that the lady precentor is actually MORE difficult to pitch from than the gentleman.
Why, no-one can explain. I can't either, except from experience, I agree with the front row.

As I read that, it takes the argument one stage further - as though howerver well a woman sings, she'll be inadequate in the role because she'll prevent the choitr from functioning ptoperly.

(For the record, I have just heard the broadcast, and I thought the precentrix had a fine, clear, straight voice, though some of her earlier entries were a little uncertain.)

[Lizzie]

It isn't news. But to suggest that your 'difficulty' arises only because the women in question can't sing isn't quite honest.

Here's an ingenious take on the problem:

As I read that, it takes the argument one stage further - as though howerver well a woman sings, she'll be inadequate in the role because she'll prevent the choitr from functioning ptoperly.

(For the record, I have just heard the broadcast, and I thought the precentrix had a fine, clear, straight voice, though some of her earlier entries were a little uncertain.)

Thank you Jean! Precisely that. I've sung Compline with her and Choral Evensong and she's extremely clear to sing with. I'm sure that, faced with microphones and the reputation of a world class choir in front of one, the steeliest of nerves might feel a tad uncertain!

[Magnificat]

Thank you Jean! Precisely that. I've sung Compline with her and Choral Evensong and she's extremely clear to sing with. I'm sure that, faced with microphones and the reputation of a world class choir in front of one, the steeliest of nerves might feel a tad uncertain!

Lizzie,

Don't you think then that this should have been forseen and that it would have been advisable to take the pressure off by asking one of the Lay Clerks to intone for the broadcast?

I am not against women clergy/Precentors. One of the finest Precentors at St Albans in the last 20 years was a woman but she had little singing voice at all. Consequently she was never allowed to intone with the full choir at weekends although she had to when the boys or girls sang midweek on their own . In fact the post of Precentor was effectively abolished and re-titled Minor Canon ( Liturgy ) and she was outstandingly good at this - the major part of the job.

VCC

[ardcarp]

I am staying out of this debate. There are many fairly inadequate voices among male precentors. However, if you want to hear a Precentor par excellence, try Evensong at Exeter Cathedral. It is now common knowledge that the Dean and nearly all the clergy (including the Precentor) have either resigned en masse or been given the push. The excellent Martin Shaw (retired Bishop of Argyll and the Isles !) has been parachuted in to keep the ship afloat. And his precenting is to die for. This is one example of how Music, the choir and organists, seem to be the constant factor in cathedral life. It just keeps the cycle of worship going.

I would have hesitated to put this on The Forum a few weeks ago, but as the spat has now been reported in the media, it's out there in the public domain.

[Dafydd y G.W.]

Don't you think then that this should have been forseen and that it would have been advisable to take the pressure off by asking one of the Lay Clerks to intone for the broadcast?

I am not against women clergy/Precentors. One of the finest Precentors at St Albans in the last 20 years was a woman but she had little singing voice at all. Consequently she was never allowed to intone with the full choir at weekends although she had to when the boys or girls sang midweek on their own . In fact the post of Precentor was effectively abolished and re-titled Minor Canon ( Liturgy ) and she was outstandingly good at this - the major part of the job.

If a lay person is acting as cantor the versicle and response "The Lord be with you / And with thy spirit", because it is a form of blessing, has to be replaced with "O Lord, hear our prayer / And let our cry come unto thee", which is musically problematic.

[jean]

...as the spat has now been reported in the media, it's out there in the public domain.

Well I wasn't aware of it, but I looked it up, and I am now:

...Bishop John Grandisson...castigated the Cathedral clergy for their irreverent behaviour. Apparently they had a habit of ‘knowingly and purposely throwing drippings or snuffings from their candles’ upon the heads of the choirboys in the stalls below ‘with the purpose of exciting laughter’...