So few Cathedral broadcasts this winter......

**light_calibre_baritone** · 07-01-17, 17:19

The standard of liturgical choral singing in this country is now so high that, in my opinion, the BBC seem to give us quite a broad selection of choirs, from the cathedral to the choral course; and let's not forget that many of these broadcasts showcase the singers that you'll be hearing in the future, and as such this broad spectrum of music making helps give them experience of what life as a church musician can be... VARIED.

Your post does have a whiff of "it was better in my day" kinda lament, but I for one am quite excited by the development of church singing in this country and am pleased it's still being broadcast regularly.

I'm sure http://www.ctcc.org.uk would like another member (if you're desperate).

**jean** · 07-01-17, 17:45

Objects
To champion the ancient tradition of the all-male choir in Cathedrals, Chapels Royal, Collegiate Churches, University Chapels and similar ecclesiastical foundations.

That seems a bit hard on Universities who never had much in the way of chapel choirs at all until they had women undergraduates.

**subcontrabass** · 07-01-17, 22:05

Originally posted by jean View Post

Objects
To champion the ancient tradition of the all-male choir in Cathedrals, Chapels Royal, Collegiate Churches, University Chapels and similar ecclesiastical foundations.

That seems a bit hard on Universities who never had much in the way of chapel choirs at all until they had women undergraduates.

In my undergraduate days at Oxford (late 1960s), apart from the three choral foundations (Christ Church, Magdalen, and New College), there were (at least) three other colleges with choirs of boys and men (Exeter, Worcester, and St John's). The boys in the choirs at Exeter and Worcester were eduated at Christ Church Choir School. The boys in the choir at St John's were recruited from local schools.

My own college, despite being still a men's college, had a mixed choir in the chapel. Before my time there as organ scholar the women had been recruited from one of the women's colleges. When I arrived I found that the College Chaplain had negotiated with a local teacher training college to provide women for our choir, so we had a tradition of a mixed choir which continues to this day (the College having gone mixed in 1974).

**Y Mab Afradlon** · 09-01-17, 10:08

I think it goes deeper than this. Pupils at school these days only do 190 days and in some cases, if you look at the many cathedral service lists that are available online, you will find that for a significant time during December the "Cathedral Choir" is on holiday. In October around the state school half term some choirs go on an extended tour of far away places such as the USA and Europe. The BBC may have no option but to ask Oxbridge and other College choirs to fill in as is the use of an archive service. It does allow us to hear a more varied diet but over the past few years I think that the emphasis on the "showcase" evensong with travelogue intros and elongated services have strayed from the original idea of attending Choral evensong as it were sung every other evening of term.

**DracoM** · 09-01-17, 15:50

Small but IMO important point: exams / assessments now impact on many age groups, including the Primary / Secondary Choir School tranches. Mnay such schools are also doing their own internal shows, so......

Added to this, of course, Christmas is a time of intense preparation for ....well.Christmas, hence DoMs understandable reluctance maybe to put themselves forward for a broadcast when a number of key services are in preparation?

Would be good to hear from parents etc of such singing children as to the pressures / time used etc?

**mw963** · 10-01-17, 10:17

Apart from a couple of the usual suspects here jumping on their own pet hobby-horses, the useful responses do - I must say - fill me with gloom.

I imagine that in the old days an approach from the BBC to a cathedral choir to do an Evensong would have elicited excitement and enthusiasm, whereas (and maybe I'm reading too much into it) it now is merely seen as an additional bl**dy nuisance by the schools that provide the choristers.

If that's the case it's not going to be long before Choral Evensong becomes something that at best is done only when it suits the academic powers that be, with maybe lots of visiting choirs (if we're lucky) filling in the gaps, or simply something that only happens on very special occasions.

In which case cathedral choirs will increasingly "go off the boil".

Please someone tell me I'm wrong, but I don't like the look of what's going on....

**Pulcinella** · 10-01-17, 11:17

I don't think that anyone has mentioned the (fairly recent) live broadcast time change (to keep the start of In Tune constant, for a reason that escapes me.....), which must add additional constraints on many cathedral choirs (and indeed other places), if the choristers have to be pulled out of lessons earlier, and perhaps lay clerks have difficulties getting there in time.

The archive broadcasts we've had recently may be no more than part of the 70th anniversary celebrations (though some did seem dubious choices, as was pointed out on the individual threads), and not really signalling the demise of future live broadcasts.

**DracoM** · 10-01-17, 12:10

I DO think cathedrals welcome BBC. Sorry if I gave a too gloomy picture.

But in the late November / Dec period, and then again in Late Lent to Easter, many traditionally mixed choirs have a pretty full and often ambitious schedule / itinerary. Add into that touring for the more celebrated ensembles which often happens in October etc half terms and of course in the summer vac, recording dates - many choirs produce locally sold CDs and as we know the top choirs record commercially distributed material - so busy, busy.

If you then add into that the boy/girl choristers' own life goals, school schedules, family gigs you can see it's a crowded and intense life, for both children and musical adults i/c admin and direction of same. Hence the BBC's use of ensembles which are under different but manageable pressures, maybe adult ensembles, Oxbridge / London College ensembles etc, and the archive.

Archives tx saves on engineers fees as well if they are not BBC in-house, which these days they might well not be. Expensive operation doing live stuff, so an archive or three tx saves money and draws on known resources.

**mw963** · 10-01-17, 12:43

Thanks Pulcinella and DracoM. I hadn't thought of the earlier start-time, you're quite right on all counts, and who cares about In Tune anyway..... (apart from its own presenter perhaps).

I'm not sure I'm much cheered by DracoM's clarifications - I suppose that the power balance between cathedral choir commitments and everything else has shifted over the years. I still don't think it bodes well for the future.....

**DracoM** · 10-01-17, 18:54

Well, actually, not sure I agree insofar as it means that more locally sourced carols can be used, thus supporting composers.

Also, the developing BBC policy of using girl-led / mixed-led choirs as well as trad boy-led choirs means that actually MORE cathedrals are eligible and in different groupings. The CE production team DOES regular mystery shopper things to assess likely ensembles, plus finding out if choirs would be available. Some aren't. But I stick to my point about the BBC economics in using archives!

PS: I'm always a bit surprised that the BBC doesn't use more foundations on the public schools [ sorry of that offends] circuit e.g. Ampleforth College, Many have pretty decent ensembles and often in pretty decent chapels etc. That might also have the effect of making those who have moved up from prep schools / primary schools, maybe wondered about giving up [peer group pressure ?] , but drift into the Y9+ age group choirs and then come feel that singing is worthwhile and a part of the excellence of what their schools offer, and appear on radio.

**jean** · 10-01-17, 19:01

Originally posted by DracoM View Post

I'm always a bit surprised that the BBC doesn't use more foundations on the public schools [ sorry of that offends] circuit e.g. Ampleforth College, Many have pretty decent ensembles and often in pretty decent chapels etc.

Ealing Abbey / St Benedict's School has a good choir, doesn't it? Have they ever broadcast?

**DracoM** · 10-01-17, 19:03

Not sure BBC would choose Ealing these days....erm...in the light of.....

There are of course Anglican / CofE schools as well with pretty useful outfits.

**omega consort** · 10-01-17, 19:05

There are a handful of Parish Church choirs still left in the UK which could also broadcast a live choral evensong; admittedly the number is diminishing as time goes on. I remember St Mary Warwick used to regularly, Bath Abbey still do, Grimsby Parish Church, Doncaster Minster off the top of my head.....

**jean** · 10-01-17, 19:13

Originally posted by DracoM View Post

Not sure BBC would choose Ealing these days....erm...in the light of...

Why should that have any effect on any decision to broadcast the choir?

Not a few cathedrals have suffered scandals of one sort or another.

So few Cathedral broadcasts this winter......

So few Cathedral broadcasts this winter......

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