Psalms at St Paul's

[jean]

Even such a disengaged teacher might question the use of 'disinterest' in this context?

If he were to look at the earliest examples cited by the OED, he might question less.

[underthecountertenor]

Of course. The old grammarians proscribed split infinitives - as they did prepositions-at-the-end - because they thought English should behave like Latin.

To be fair, the only person to criticise Alain's split infinitive was Alain himself.

I strongly advise him to consult in future only some grammar sources. My approved list is available on request.

.

Re the split infinitive - exactly!

I find that the Guardian style guide usually hits the mark.

[Dafydd y G.W.]

As to who has the authority to change the liturgy, isn't that the prerogative of the Dean?

As most choral foundations do not come under the ordinary jurisdiction of the diocesan bishop* there has long been a tendency to assume that they have a liturgical flexibility denied to parish churches. This is probably bad law, but in more recent times the flexibility granted by Canon B5(1) no doubt covers such changes as psalmody schemes:

"The minister who is to conduct the service may in his discretion make and use variations which are not of substantial importance in any form of service authorized by Canon B 1 according to particular circumstances."

It should be noted that strictly speaking this authority rests with the "minister who is to conduct the service", so if the officiant at evensong were to choose an entirely different set of psalms he/she would probably be within his/her rights.


* In cathedrals the Dean and Chapter are the Ordinary, in Royal Peculiars (e.g. Westminster Abbey, S. George's Chapel), in Oxbridge Chapels usually the Master and Fellows.

[Dafydd y G.W.]

The old grammarians proscribed split infinitives [...] because they thought English should behave like Latin..

That's not quite right.

It's a fact that historically English usage avoided split infinitives (there are hardly any in Shakespeare, and he is not exactly noted for linguistic pedantry). The "like Latin" argument may have been an attempt to rationalise this (anti-)phenomenon, but it's not true to suggest that is the invention of pedants misled by their Classical education (that case can be made for other "rules", but not for this one).

[Dafydd y G.W.]

On the general point of reducing the amount of psalmody to a minimum, this is regrettable, because the recitation of the psalter is what the daily office is about. The other matter was gradually added to this kernel, and is essentially subordinate to it.

Liturgically speaking, if you want brevity, it would make more sense to drop other items (hymns, intercessions, anthems - even responses and canticles) before you start to prune the psalms.

[Vox Humana]

Even such a disengaged teacher might question the use of 'disinterest' in this context?

QED!

[Keraulophone]

Who has the authority in a foundation to make such changes to the psalm routines?

The Precentor, as Head of the Department of Liturgy and Music, has the authority so to do. Several years ago, the Precentor of Truro Cathedral devised the 'Truro Psalter', having separate cycles of the psalms for weekdays and Sundays. However, for reasons beyond me, the BCP psalms for the day are still sung on R3 broadcasts of CE.

[Keraulophone]

the recitation of the psalter is what the daily office is about.

On the other hand, it is a tradition of Truro Cathedral that the Greater Chapter of the cathedral (including Hon. Canons) participate in the daily recitation of the complete psalter. At the Installation of Canons, the Precentor reminds the new Canons that their psalms are inscribed within their stall (in Latin), and then invites each of the them to 'turn and mark them well'. I sometimes wonder, according to the look on their faces, whether they have been allocated Ps. 119.

[underthecountertenor]

The Precentor, as Head of the Department of Liturgy and Music, has the authority so to do.

Wouldn't the ambit of the authority delegated to the Precentor vary from place to place? I'm not sure that a precentor would necessarily have carte blanche to devise a new cycle of psalms, as it were on a whim. Indeed, I would be surprised if the Precentor of Truro had devised the Truro Psalter without the specific authority of the Dean and Chapter to change the psalm cycle - it's clearly a very significant decision with long-lasting effects. But of course I bow to your local knowledge in this regard!
Speaking of which....on the thread for the upcoming Windsor broadcast, I suggested that the BBC did not require cathedrals etc to use the BCP cycle for broadcasts, if they otherwise wouldn't. I was drawing inferences from examples known to me where the establishments have used their own appointed psalms for a broadcast. It now appears that there are counter-examples (Truro as you say, and possibly Windsor). Curiouser and....

[Keraulophone]

Wouldn't the ambit of the authority delegated to the Precentor vary from place to place?

This is very likely to be the case in most foundations, though in Truro we have had, until recently, a Precentor with a particular interest in the liturgy, who sat on the kind of national committee that makes arrangements for services such as the Queen's funeral. Being the longest serving member of Chapter, including two stints as Acting Dean, he was unused to being corrected in liturgical matters by other members of Chapter, who recognised the value of his expertise. In cases where the Head of the Department of Liturgy and Music makes or tries to enforce a change which raises doubts in Chapter, or is unpopular with musicians and/or congregation, then the Dean is of course fully entitled to overrule him or her.

[underthecountertenor]

This is very likely to be the case in most foundations, though in Truro we have had, until recently, a Precentor with a particular interest in the liturgy, who sat on the kind of national committee that makes arrangements for services such as the Queen's funeral. Being the longest serving member of Chapter, including two stints as Acting Dean, he was unused to being corrected in liturgical matters by other members of Chapter, who recognised the value of his expertise. In cases where the Head of the Department of Liturgy and Music makes or tries to enforce a change which raises doubts in Chapter, or is unpopular with musicians and/or congregation, then the Dean is of course fully entitled to overrule him or her.

[Keraulophone]

I was paid once by the Beeb for some work done for them by CW sound recordist. Had to give it back, sadly. He did a wonderful program a couple of years ago, recording the sounds Britten would have heard on his walks round Aldeburgh.

The said Chris Watson has excelled himself here... 'hippos spend all day on the river bed telling each other jokes then emerge at sunset to laugh'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04b8ns3?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_radio_3&ns_source=facebook&ns_linkname=radio_and_music

[Don Basilio]

I used to visit various cathedrals for sung evensong. The readings would have been from CW. Sometimes (Chichester? Canterbury?) the psalms were from the BCP.

But I can't remember anyone using the CW psalms. As I use them on my own, I was disappointed.

[underthecountertenor]

I used to visit various cathedrals for sung evensong. The readings would have been from CW. Sometimes (Chichester? Canterbury?) the psalms were from the BCP.

But I can't remember anyone using the CW psalms. As I use them on my own, I was disappointed.

I think the BCP text of the psalms is generally used, even if the cathedral adopts a different psalm cycle.

[Don Basilio]

O yes. The BCP text inevitably, But I am as confused where some cathedrals get their psalm course from. It's not a concert, it is a liturgical act of worship which should be in line with the rest, or at least other parts, of the church.

I find CW psalms far preferable reciting the office at home: morning psalms are used in the morning, evening psalms in the evening and Psalm 119 spread over the entire period.