Psalms at St Paul's

[Alain Maréchal]

the 'that' could be either a demonstrative, identifying that 'of' as distinct from 'of's in general; or it could be a conjunction. The reader stops, worries, and the flow of concentration is lost.

It was a demonstrative, and I agree with jean that it did not make my meaning clear. I may have been subconsciously worrying about its being a terminating preposition.

[Pulcinella]

No, because there would only ever be room for one that in my sentence, and whether it's there or not, there's no doubt what sort of that it is.

But in Alain's sentence as written


the 'that' could be either a demonstrative, identifying that 'of' as distinct from 'of's in general; or it could be a conjunction. The reader stops, worries, and the flow of concentration is lost.

Yes; that's why I added the winkeye to my comment about your sentence!

[french frank]

Meanwhile, any answers to #24?

Sorry? Speak up!

[DracoM]

No need for the apology, RJ. I am happy for my English to be corrected. In France it is considered quite permissible to subtly correct the grammar of perfect strangers (and thus put me in my place as a Wallon).

Jean: thank you. I rewrote that phrase at least twice and was never happy with it. I have just realised that "to be unaware of" is, I think, a phrasal verb.

Meanwhile, any answers to #24?

Try # 29?

[Alain Maréchal]

Try # 29?

<<to reduce the number of verses per service>>. Why? Does The Lord have an urgent appointment elsewhere?

<<today's choristers will not get to know the morning Psalms>> Since they do not sing the Morning Psalms they do not need to learn how to sing them, and if they need to know the Psalms they can read or be taught them.

I note that my #28 contains a split infinitive. I apologize.

[Vox Humana]

I'm guessing the main reason for revision from the BCP cycle is to reduce the number of verses per service. There's also the problem that today's choristers will not get to know the morning Psalms as Mattins isn't sung as often, if at all.

Yes. If cathedrals still sang weekday Matins no one would have needed to tamper with the psalmody, but Matins just isn't practical these days. In my long-lost youth I was an organ scholar in one of the last noble piles that still sang a weekday Matins. I well remember how much of the rehearsal time the psalms of the day took up, but the boys were pretty well acquainted with most of the psalms and to some extent this eased the time that one needed to spend on them. Maybe once a month there cropped up a psalm which they did not know well and that needed extra rehearsal, but it was manageable. The organist knew all the words, pointing and chants off by heart and to watch him accompanying - or, rather, decorating - the psalms, all apparently off the cuff, was a simply awe-inspiring experience.

I have a friend who lurks on this forum and who has more than once bemoaned to me the desuetude of the grammatical "that". Alas, my English teacher at school had a cynicism, disinterest and negligence that would surely see him put into special measures today and, as a result, my grammar has always been more intuitive than theoretical, but I have always agreed with my friend. And that's that. At any rate, Alain's English is a lot better than mine.

[Alain Maréchal]

At any rate, Alain's English is a lot better than mine.

So kind, but your post made me check my dictionaries and grammar sources, for a word with which I was unfamiliar, (possibly a faux-ami) and an expression of speech. My secret is simple; I read and revise my posts several times. I think it is obvious which phrase I had to change in this one.

[oddoneout]

. Alas, my English teacher at school had a cynicism, disinterest and negligence that would surely see him put into special measures today

Even such a disengaged teacher might question the use of 'disinterest' in this context?

[mopsus]

St Paul's in the mid 1980's had a system where 'morning' and 'evening' psalms for the day were done at evensong in alternate months.

As I understand it very few places did sung Matins after the Second World War. But the move away from the BCP evening psalms of the day happened a lot later in many places. When I started going to Cathedral services in the 1980s many Cathedrals and similar foundations used the BCP system (I recall Peterborough, St Alban's, King's College Cambridge and - with the proviso above - St Paul's), but on return visits a decade later there was less psalmody.

So I think there are other reasons - a perceived shorter attention span of congregations? Readings at Evensong also seem to be a lot shorter than they used to be too. As I've mentioned before, some places such as Windsor and Liverpool don't even use the Common Worship psalm cycle, but a miserly few verses at a time. Obviously those psalmists didn't know what they were doing when they had to go over that limit to express themselves.

[DracoM]

Who has the authority in a foundation to make such changes to the psalm routines? The diocese? higher up? I suppose this touches on how liturgical observance can shift not by central order / diktat but in response to 'local' conditions?

[jean]

...As I've mentioned before, some places such as Windsor and Liverpool don't even use the Common Worship psalm cycle, but a miserly few verses at a time...

Is this true, though?

Listeners will remember that when Evensong was last broadcast from Liverpool, we were offered three psalms, but only got two:

...I do love the Wesley chant for Psalm 42—but what happened to 41?...

They told us there wasn't time for it.

Which doesn't seem to be the cathedral's fault!

[Pulcinella]

Is this true, though?

Listeners will remember that when Evensong was last broadcast from Liverpool, we were offered three psalms, but only got two:


Which doesn't seem to be the cathedral's fault!

Well, it does to the extent that they presumably chose the canticle settings, anthem, and voluntary, so could have chosen shorter options and ensured that there was time for the full set of psalms. Or dropped the hymn? But it was good to hear that organ in all its glory in Crown Imperial!

[mopsus]

Often on broadcasts there are more psalms than you would normally get at that foundation (for example, you sometimes get BCP psalmody from King's College Cambridge on broadcasts though they have given it up for daily services.)

Looking at Liverpool's music list, they seem now to do one psalm a day (rather than the two you would get in many places), which is slightly more generous than I remember from looking at a music list a few years ago. Windsor though remain stingy - if the psalm is longer than about 20 verses it is abbreviated. For example on Friday this week Choral Evensong there has only the first 9 verses of Ps. 145, which is 21 verses long. Why cut it? The rest of the psalm is not about cursing one's enemies - on the contrary the omitted portion includes beautiful verses like 'The eyes of all wait upon Thee O Lord'.

As to who has the authority to change the liturgy, isn't that the prerogative of the Dean?

[underthecountertenor]

<<to reduce the number of verses per service>>. Why? Does The Lord have an urgent appointment elsewhere?

<<today's choristers will not get to know the morning Psalms>> Since they do not sing the Morning Psalms they do not need to learn how to sing them, and if they need to know the Psalms they can read or be taught them.

I note that my #28 contains a split infinitive. I apologize.

Nothing wrong with a split infinitive in my book. Indeed it's misplaced pedantry to criticise it, I'd say.

[jean]

Of course. The old grammarians proscribed split infinitives - as they did prepositions-at-the-end - because they thought English should behave like Latin.

To be fair, the only person to criticise Alain's split infinitive was Alain himself.

...your post made me check my...grammar sources...

I strongly advise him to consult in future only some grammar sources. My approved list is available on request.

.