CE Canterbury Cathedral Wed, 21st September 2016

[mopsus]

Last time I sang in Canterbury was at the end of May last year and they had the heating on! I don't think the Cathedral can be very short of money with all the visitors it gets.

I'm not an 'old-timer', at least not in age, though I have been on the forum since the BBC messageboard days. And I'm afraid I pulled the plug on the Whitlock part way through! I was interested to see a plainchant Gloria added to the Magnificat, as I've sung the Finzi Magnificat sans Gloria at Canterbury in the past with no problem.

[underthecountertenor]

I was interested to see a plainchant Gloria added to the Magnificat, as I've sung the Finzi Magnificat sans Gloria at Canterbury in the past with no problem.

Assuming you're talking in the context of an evensong, I'm surprised that the Dean and Chapter allowed the Finzi at all (at nearly 10 minutes even without a Gloria Patri); and shocked that they allowed the Magnificat to conclude without a GP in some form. Perhaps (as to the latter) they had fallen asleep and didn't notice?

[mopsus]

As I recall at that Canterbury service (with a visiting choir on a Saturday) we were pretty much given free rein as they were very preoccupied with a concert that evening. The downside was that we could only rehearse from about 1-2 pm! I've also sung the Finzi without a Gloria at Exeter and heard it on a number of broadcasts, from King's College Chapel and other places, without one. However at the risk of making it even longer, there is now the option of an interpolated Gloria commissioned by Gloucester Cathedral from David Bednall, who has also written a companion Nunc Dimittis. I heard it at the 3 Choirs Festival. A plainchant Gloria at the end, as Canterbury did with the Part, would sound odd coming after Finzi's setting of Amen.

[ardcarp]

Hmmm.... so where is the 'Clarinet' that everyone seems to despise? Is it maybe the 'CLARION' ?

It's the Cremona.

John Norman describes it as a 'typical English compromise between Krummhorn and the Clarinet'. This family of stops has half-length resonators, which are parallel-sided. i.e. not flared as in the trumpet/clarion family.

Am I getting too nerdy?

[Finzi4ever]

It's the Cremona.

John Norman describes it as a 'typical English compromise between Krummhorn and the Clarinet'. This family of stops has half-length resonators, which are parallel-sided. i.e. not flared as in the trumpet/clarion family.

Am I getting too nerdy?

I think the engineers didn't help the situation - you can hear them (or their computerised equivalent) tugging down the levels during the tuba moments (harsh and rough as that tuba is) as if it was catching them/it out and then shoving them back up and beyond fro the Cremona, meaning the latter came out louder than the former.

[ardcarp]

That's what I suspected in my post #3

[mw963]

I think the engineers didn't help the situation - you can hear them (or their computerised equivalent) tugging down the levels during the tuba moments (harsh and rough as that tuba is) as if it was catching them/it out and then shoving them back up and beyond fro the Cremona, meaning the latter came out louder than the former.

What version of R3 were you listening on F4e?

I've only heard the Whitlock on the iplayer, will try and listen properly on Sunday.

You're probably aware that Radio 3 FM is the victim of the automatic processing which is such a scourge of modern radio, whereas DAB/DSat/DTT aren't. Having said that, there are some CE's where a great deal of damage is also done by the balancer (probably under orders from the producer) where quieter bits are manually brought up, often with very little skill it has to be said.

[ardcarp]

In fairness to engineers, cathedral acoustics plus the difficulty of balancing choirs (small-ish) and organs (big-ish) must be challenging. I was talking to a hearing specialist the other day (luckily not about my hearing) and he pointed out that the human ear, with its associated brain processing, can cope with a much, much greater dynamic range than even the best mike/speaker equipment.

As an example, Hereford Cathedral organ is capable of a massive dynamic range from the quietest whisper to the most massive blast. If recording levels were set to hear the whisper, the blast would distort everything. Likewise, if if the levels were set for the blast, the whisper would be inaudible. A mere human, however, can perceive both with just a bog-standard pair of lugs.

[mw963]

Yes, but modern practice is to limit the dynamic range on radio to a ridiculous extent - in spite of the fact that digital transmission systems are capable of carrying a much wider spread between very loud (limited by the maximum as permitted by the design of the system) and very quiet (limited by the noise floor).

In spite of the fact we're moving from FM (capable of very good dynamic range in mono and reasonable dynamic range in stereo) to digital (an extra 20 dB or so of range) we're ending up REDUCING DELIBERATELY the actual transmitted dynamic range, mainly because there is a fear of not being "loudest on the dial" or being "too quiet in the car".

To be fair Radio 3 on digital is an admirable exception to the almost universal rule of processing, and so it's a shame when balancers over-control the source signal, which in any case will be compressed further down the broadcast chain for FM.

[Finzi4ever]

What version of R3 were you listening on F4e?

I've only heard the Whitlock on the iplayer, will try and listen properly on Sunday.

You're probably aware that Radio 3 FM is the victim of the automatic processing which is such a scourge of modern radio, whereas DAB/DSat/DTT aren't. Having said that, there are some CE's where a great deal of damage is also done by the balancer (probably under orders from the producer) where quieter bits are manually brought up, often with very little skill it has to be said.

On radio player

[mw963]

On radio player

Ah - and because I have such a grotty internet connection that is the one I feel least able to pontificate on. I rather assume it's not subject to automatic compression (but please correct me if I'm wrong) so I imagine that level tugging (as you so elegantly put it) is more down to on-site intervention.

I must try and listen via satellite tomorrow.

[mw963]

Ah - and because I have such a grotty internet connection that is the one I feel least able to pontificate on. I rather assume it's not subject to automatic compression (but please correct me if I'm wrong) so I imagine that level tugging (as you so elegantly put it) is more down to on-site intervention.

I must try and listen via satellite tomorrow.

Managed to listen via Dsat, with the benefit also of a set of BBC meters in play.

I don't think there was any (or very little) automatic compression or limiting on site. Having said that, there were (as if often the case) some level oddities. The loudest peak of the whole show was during one of the responses from the second set, which was pretty much up to the technical limit. In contrast the Whitlock never got higher than 4 dB below peak level, even on the fff sections with coupled tuba! The levels were being played about with manually during the Whitlock with what I would describe as poor levels of sympathy for the music.

Although curiously the Cremona - whilst sounding subjectively loud - was actually pretty realistic in terms of level and a good 12 dB below the full organ sound, on its second outing the meters were barely stirring! I think it was probably the sheer ugliness of the stop that made it sound so strident, although for those who were listening on FM it's likely that Optimod would have tugged the level up quite a bit making things even worse.

Having prepared myself for the somewhat close organ sound I actually enjoyed the Whitlock more on a second hearing of this version than I had the first via iplayer.

[Nazard]

Assuming you're talking in the context of an evensong, I'm surprised that the Dean and Chapter allowed the Finzi at all (at nearly 10 minutes even without a Gloria Patri); and shocked that they allowed the Magnificat to conclude without a GP in some form. Perhaps (as to the latter) they had fallen asleep and didn't notice?

The Finzi Mag was (and presumably still is) a staple of the repertoire at Wells and was always performed (including on a 2015 R3 broadcast) without a Gloria Patri. Interestingly enough, in the front matter of the setting the composer himself stipulates that it is not intended for liturgical use!!

[Chris Watson]

The Finzi Mag was (and presumably still is) a staple of the repertoire at Wells and was always performed (including on a 2015 R3 broadcast) without a Gloria Patri. Interestingly enough, in the front matter of the setting the composer himself stipulates that it is not intended for liturgical use!!

Not sure if news of this has filtered through - I've not had the chance to hear it or see a copy yet, but the quality of David's other music and his love of Finzi mean that I bet it's good! https://www.boosey.com/shop/news/Fin...ucester/100754

[mopsus]

Not sure if news of this has filtered through - I've not had the chance to hear it or see a copy yet, but the quality of David's other music and his love of Finzi mean that I bet it's good! https://www.boosey.com/shop/news/Fin...ucester/100754

I heard it at the Three Choirs Festival. It is clever in its use of material from the rest of the Magnificat, though you lose the transition from the big climax on 'Abraham and his seed for ever' to the very characteristic 'Amen'.

The Nunc Dimittis is on a similarly large scale to the Magnificat, making a demanding setting to perform in its entirety.