CE Westminster Abbey 9th March 2016

[Keraulophone]

the gossip and the boasting of supposed inside knowledge

[ardcarp]

Yes, apart from being a fine organist, John Winter was a good musical craftsman, capable of writing suitably simple and directly communicative, melodious music for his choirboys, when, back in those days when the Cathedral School existed (it closed in 1981) they sang all but one of the four weekday Evensongs on their own (the gentlemen joining them on Wednesdays). One of those short anthems (though this one is SATB), with words by the then Dean of Truro the Very Revd David Shearlock, was televised in 1985 by TV South West (ITV), with the composer in the organ loft, as was his wont, and his assistant for 19 years (and DoM of Truro School, a Methodist foundation from 1880), the late Henry Doughty (whose father-in-law was the conductor and producer Lawrance Collingwood, with The Gramophone Co/EMI 1926-72), waving: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbWYDsx7PHc

The link led on to A Day in the Life of a Chorister......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eb8Sge8F6Y

[underthecountertenor]

Hang on a minute! Speaking one's mind to members of a choir, especially a paid choir, is sometimes necessary. It also depends how things are said. It can be done lightly or with humour but nonetheless with intent! This is not gossip or hearsay because in both the following cases, I was there. Roy Massey to altos.."If you don't stop that hooting, I'll bring some birdseed next time" (slightly illogical I agree). Barry Rose to me (sight-reading a short solo in one of his pieces) "OK that was superb Serbo Croat...now can we have it in English?" Both RM and BR were renowned choirtrainers and neither minced their words. It was all taken in good part. Personally, if I'm singing like a drain (increasingly likely with advancing age) I would like to be told.

But that's rather the point. The context, and the manner, in which things are said will be understood only by those who were there. When remarks of directors of music are lifted out of context and placed before people who don't know the DoM in question or the circumstances in which the remark was made, then (even if the remarks have been quoted entirely accurately), those people might be led to form a false impression of the speaker. That, I think, is the point that Nevilevelis was making.

Every DoM has his or her own way of making a point. Some are more cutting than others. No doubt the cutting remarks are usually (but not invariably) taken in good part by those on the receiving end. But the remarks can be made, and can be taken in good part, because of the relationship of trust and confidence that has been built up within the choir (assuming that the DoM has done his or her job properly in building that relationship in the first place). Once it appears from sites like this that these remarks might be made public by insiders flaunting their status as such, that relationship of trust and confidence is put at risk.

[Keraulophone]

Just listened on iTunes and had no difficulty following the trebles in the Finzi. Did they rebalance the recording?

Finally managed to catch up with this CE, listening to what is described on iPlayer as 'an edited recording', which begs the question 'what was edited?' Did they edit out more baby noises, or has the balance somehow been changed? I doubt whether that would even be possible, as the main microphone pair are likely to pick up back and front rows equally. I agree with chitreb that there doesn't seem to be a balance problem within the choir, but having missed the live broadcast, can't say what the difference might have been, if indeed one existed (as attested in earlier comments). The trebles can be properly heard in LTFFS, even when ATB are contributing in (suitably) forthright manner. It all adds up to a colourful and attractively textured sound. A very satisfying, well-sung and well-directed service from one of the finest choirs of its type.

[ardcarp]

Once it appears from sites like this that these remarks might be made public by insiders flaunting their status as such, that relationship of trust and confidence is put at risk.

This isn't Facebook or Twitter, and I don't think a bit of mild reminiscing (I wouldn't even call it gossip) is going cause mass hysteria. Anything libelous or even disrespectful will no doubt attract the attention of our merry band of hosts and moderators.

[underthecountertenor]

This isn't Facebook or Twitter, and I don't think a bit of mild reminiscing (I wouldn't even call it gossip) is going cause mass hysteria. Anything libelous or even disrespectful will no doubt attract the attention of our merry band of hosts and moderators.

Yup. Thanks for missing the point. Who said anything about mass hysteria? Oh, you did, with a view to misrepresenting and ridiculing my argument.

[Magnificat]

This isn't Facebook or Twitter, and I don't think a bit of mild reminiscing (I wouldn't even call it gossip) is going cause mass hysteria. Anything libelous or even disrespectful will no doubt attract the attention of our merry band of hosts and moderators.

ardcarp

A book has just been published about the choirs and musicians of St Albans Cathedral which relates many of the anecdotes I have mentioned on this board over the years including the story of Barry Rose's appointment in his own words, Colin Walsh's ' Night Of The Long Knives' and reminiscencies of the idiosyncracies and eccentricities of various musicians and clergy. It seems that all my gossip was true after all!!. I hope under-the counter-tenor doesn't read it as he'll have a heart attack.

VCC.

[ardcarp]

Thanks VCC. Can you post up the title of the book and the publisher?

[Magnificat]

Thanks VCC. Can you post up the title of the book and the publisher?

ardcarp

Alban Notes - The Choirs and Musicians of St Albans Cathedral by Malcolm G Bury, Rhinegold Publishing. ISBN 9781910622179 RRP £12.99

Available from St Albans Cathedra Ex - Choristers Association ( see website ) and Cathedral shop.

VCC

[ardcarp]

Thanks.

[Keraulophone]

'The first chapter of the book covers the period from around 780 AD when King Offa made land available for the establishment of a Benedictine Monastery...'
So u-c-t ought not to get too overexcited about the author* spilling the beans on the 'idiosyncracies and eccentricities of musicians and clergy' during this first phase, at least.

*Chairman of the St. Albans Cathedral Ex-Choristers Association - presumably in a position to have obtained the permission of all concerned to publish these anecdotes.

http://www.stalbanseca.org/book-launch-21st-january-2016/

[Magnificat]

'The first chapter of the book covers the period from around 780 AD when King Offa made land available for the establishment of a Benedictine Monastery...'
So u-c-t ought not to get too overexcited about the author* spilling the beans on the 'idiosyncracies and eccentricities of musicians and clergy' during this first phase, at least.

*Chairman of the St. Albans Cathedral Ex-Choristers Association - presumably in a position to have obtained the permission of all concerned to publish these anecdotes.
http://www.stalbanseca.org/book-laun...-january-2016/

K

There is, however, a very striking paragraph in this chapter viz:

From about the 10th century it is not unusual to find references to boys in Benedictine houses as 'monks' sharing the adults' work in choir. It is interesting to see Benedictine Rules governing the boys' moral safety and to compare them with today's child protection legislation. ' Youths are not to accompany monks on journeys. There is to be no kissing nor embracing of children but only spiritual affection shown. No monk must ever take a boy with him alone. Not even on the excuse of some spiritual matter shall any monk presume to take with him a young boy alone for any private purpose.' They were to follow Benedict's guidance: 'Let the children always remain under the care of their Master. Nor shall the Master himself be allowed to be in company with a boy without a third person as witness; but let the Master and Schola ( presumably the Schola Cantorum, the choir of monks ) go together in the accustomed manner wherever reason and necessity demand'. What circumstances gave rise to the strictness of Benedict's guidance can only be conjectured.

VCC

[Miles Coverdale]

What circumstances gave rise to the strictness of Benedict's guidance can only be conjectured.

VCC

I don't think that requires too much imagination, does it?

I can't help thinking that the Catholic Church (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, the C of E), could have saved itself a lot of trouble, not to say a vast amount of money, if it had followed Benedict a little more closely.

[Keraulophone]

the Catholic Church...could have saved itself a lot of trouble, not to say a vast amount of money, if it had followed Benedict a little more closely.

St Benedict's School / Ealing Abbey being just one shameful example of monks straying from the path of their founder. ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15650420 )

[ardcarp]

I think this thread has wandered a long way from CE at Westminster Abbey. As some concern has been expressed to the moderators, I think it wisest to close it.