Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

[doversoul1]

Ockeghem: Missa prolationum

Through the Night Saturday 5th

3:36 AM
Ockeghem, Johannes (c.1410-1497)
Missa prolationum
The Hilliard Ensemble: David James & Ashley Stafford (altos), Rogers Covey-Crump, John Potter & Mark Padmore (tenors), Gordon Jones (baritone), David Beavan (bass), Paul Hillier (bass/director)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b071d0k5

[DracoM]

Thx for heads-up, DS.

[DracoM]

Cesar’s Service, John Amner (1579-1641)
Being sung live c 10.30 p.m. our time live by the Choir of Men and Boys, St Thomas Fifth Avenue NYC Wed, Mar 9th.

[jean]

Has this become a thread for listing particular performances rather than discussing choral music in general?

[french frank]

Has this become a thread for listing particular performances rather than discussing choral music in general?

Dunno what it's become. It started out as an enquiry as to whether the choral repertoire itself, especially full-length works, deserved a better slot than the more 'people-based' The Choir or an occasional concert broadcast, which hasn't been any kind of replacement for Choir Works .

[jean]

Until the end of p.8 there was lots of related discussion about choral singing here and elsewhere and how that might affect R3's presentation of it.

Let's not lose that! (Because I keep meaning to reply to Gabriel's last post.)

[ardcarp]

Yes, a catch-all thread entitled 'Choral Music' is likely to, er, catch everything choral. Best if we use this thread in the spirit of FF's original post, namely Radio 3's presentation of, and priorities for, choral music. Anything new and interesting, e.g. a named piece and its performers, deserves a new thread-title.

I've just had the temerity to modify the title of ff's original post

[Ed: Ooh, I was just wondering how that happened :-) - ff ]

[doversoul1]

Until the end of p.8 there was lots of related discussion about choral singing here and elsewhere and how that might affect R3's presentation of it.

Let's not lose that! (Because I keep meaning to reply to Gabriel's last post.)

If lots of discussions barge into a thread for listing particular performances, it will make things rather tiresome but I wouldn’t have thought the other way round would bother people too much? I thought this was a good place to pop in a note as something came up. It isn’t meant to be (as far as I am concerned) for anything else. Just skip over it and continue the discussion.

I don’t know about others but I don’t think I’d feel brave enough to post my findings (individual works or programmes) on a dedicated thread on The Choir Board.

[DracoM]

Doversoul - NO, DO please feel like post them on The Choir as well.

[jean]

To return to the comparison between different European singing traditions.

I've just been to a splendid St Matthew Passion in Liverpool, conducted (splendidly) by Nathalie Stutzmann. After rehearsing the RLP choir, she was asked "Did they meet your expectations?"

She replied:

"No, not at all - they exceeded them! I did not understand that there are many wonderful amateur choirs in the UK - this is not a tradition we have in France. Until now I didn't work with amateur choirs but, having been persuaded, I love it. Only in Scandunavia have I worked where there is the same tradition...The choir sing with such motivation, they respond so warmly, in fact it can be more satisfying than with professional choirs for that reason..."

[Gabriel Jackson]

She replied:

"No, not at all - they exceeded them! I did not understand that there are many wonderful amateur choirs in the UK - this is not a tradition we have in France. Until now I didn't work with amateur choirs but, having been persuaded, I love it. Only in Scandunavia have I worked where there is the same tradition...The choir sing with such motivation, they respond so warmly, in fact it can be more satisfying than with professional choirs for that reason..."

This is very interesting (and thank you, Jean, for reviving what was a very interesting thread). Much of the preceding discussion had perhaps assumed that amateur choirs are 'inferior' to professional choirs.

A question that ought to be asked more often is, what are the things professional choirs are 'better' at, and are those the most important things?

[ardcarp]

Ducking Gabriel's question for a moment, it is sadly true that the amateur choral tradition in France is generally very weak. There may be a few notable exceptions in big cities, but I do not know about them. A few years ago, on a choir tour in Brittany, we were hosted at one venue by a local small amateur choir. They asked if they could join us for one item. (A rather unconventional request!) As they could not sing anything we were doing, the conductor agreed that we would join them in something they were currently rehearsing...a movement from Palestrina's Missa Brevis. The French choir were just astonished that we could sing it straight off...even doing their Latin pronunciation. This is in no way a boast, just a sadness that these very keen, hospitable and lovely people were starting from a very low ability base (not just sight-reading but voice production too). I believe that our choral tradition in the UK rests very largely on singing done as children in church and school. With the decline in 'proper' parish church music, and with 'proper' school choirs...with notable exceptions...becoming increasingly a preserve of the independent sector, we need to guard against the decline of our own choral tradition. It still seems very strong right now, but I wonder what are the chances, in future years, of having such a resource of capable singers if they only begin singing in adulthood?

[DracoM]

Even at schools which have hitherto valued their choral tradition, I can tell you from recent personal experience, that singing chorally has dropped to a very, very low place on the order of musical priorities.

Now, MUSICALS...........aha! Totally different matter. Microphones, bright lights, stars strutting their stuff...no prob.

Recently sang a Latin-base choral favourite and at no point did the DOM explain to the company what the words meant, and it was not until very late in the run that i realised that SHE did not know what the Latin words meant either. How can you encourage / coach a choir where the basic language of musical culture in European music is unknown, and that's just the DOM. Many others in the choir, most of whom attend a local school, had not a clue what the were singing, Latin no longer available to more than a very few. For the rest, what they were singing was just sounds.

This means that fewer young people come to concerts where much of the language is Latin, so none get a sense that they could do it, thus less interest, a turning away to easier models and modes. QED. Outside specialist schools, where on earth is the renewal of the choral tradition to come from?

[Gabriel Jackson]

Recently sang a Latin-base choral favourite and at no point did the DOM explain to the company what the words meant, and it was not until very late in the run that i realised that SHE did not know what the Latin words meant either.

Not knowing what the words mean (whatever the language) is undoubtedly a massive problem that can afflict choirs (and their conductors), for sure.

How can you encourage / coach a choir where the basic language of musical culture in European music is unknown, and that's just the DOM. Many others in the choir, most of whom attend a local school, had not a clue what the were singing, Latin no longer available to more than a very few. For the rest, what they were singing was just sounds.

I'm not sure that Latin is the basic langauge of European musical culture, is it? People sing in languages they don't actually speak all the time. How many of those many that sing the Rachmaninov Vespers, say, can speak Russian?

This means that fewer young people come to concerts where much of the language is Latin, so none get a sense that they could do it, thus less interest, a turning away to easier models and modes. QED.

I have know idea whether is true or not. Adults who haven't learned Latin attend concerts of music in Latin; non-German speakers attend performances of the Bach Passions.

My niece, at a state school, has the opportunity to learn a second language (in addition to French). One of those options is Latin. My advice to her was to learn another language that people actually speak, for all that Latin can be useful.

[subcontrabass]

How many of those many that sing the Rachmaninov Vespers, say, can speak Russian?

The majority of Russian speakers would not understand most of the text of Rachmaninoff's All-Night Vigil as it is in Church Slavonic.