Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

[ardcarp]

The Stor Kör and Orkester put on the following programme: Hymnus Paradisi (HH), Toward the Unknown Region (VW), The Beatitudes (Pärt) and Song for Athene (JT) - impressive! How many amateur British choirs or choral societies could match that?

Brilliant for the Swedish choir to do all that... 3 out of 4 British pieces.....but there are many British Choirs which do that well too.

BTW, Grace Williams' Missa Cambrensis broadcast tonight by Ysgol Gerdd Ceredigion (children's chorus) and the
BBC National Chorus of Wales was of another order of difficulty compared with the above. Tortuous stuff!

[Gabriel Jackson]

When on Swedish tours (our diocese is twinned with one near Stockholm), I have been struck by the warmth and appreciation with which British choral music has been received in Sweden.

It's also very charming, isn't it, that Swedish people love to hear us speaking English?

[rauschwerk]

That's exactly right, Richard! For me (and much of this could be said of instrumentalists too), engagement means going beyond simply making a "pleasant" sound and singing in tune and together, it means actually doing what's in the score in terms of dynamics, articulation etc. and bringing the music to life thereby, being willing to make sounds that aren't conventionally "nice" if that's what the music requires, actually thinking about the words and what they mean, and how that understanding can colour (in all senses) the performance in a detailed and vivid way, and some sense of emotional identification so there is conviction in the singing.

Spot on! And it follows that a choral director needs a formidable skill set to get all of this from singers. In 40 years of choral singing and accompanying in this area, I have hardly come across any who really have what it takes, good musicians though many are. No doubt it's different in the choral centres of excellence.

[Pulcinella]

BTW, Grace Williams' Missa Cambrensis broadcast tonight by Ysgol Gerdd Ceredigion (children's chorus) and the
BBC National Chorus of Wales was of another order of difficulty compared with the above. Tortuous stuff!

Were there transmission problems?
The interval feature certainly went awry, but the mass was plagued with dropouts.
No mention at the end, but after the concert all was fine, so I don't think it was my Sonos system.

[Oldcrofter]

My choral director friend in Sweden drew this to my attention on his Facebook page yesterday - it's already attracted 21 Swedish "likes" from his friends on Facebook.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/12176998/Looking-for-Britains-future-leaders-Try-evensong.html

Swedes don't just follow the fortunes of all the English Premiership teams either. He's just posted photo & details of concerts coming up in Stockholm and Västerås cathedral by King's College Cambridge choir - that's already got 26 "likes" as well.

"Missa inte! (Don't miss it !) 16 april i Storkyrkan (Stockholm Cathedral) 17 april i Västerås Domkyrka!"

[Keraulophone]

And it follows that a choral director needs a formidable skill set to get all of this from singers. In 40 years of choral singing and accompanying in this area, I have hardly come across any who really have what it takes, good musicians though many are.

During fifty years of standing in front of choral directors, I've found only two or three 'who really have what it takes'. Many of the others remain the 'good musicans' you refer to, even exceptionally fine musicians, but often their training as organists hasn't equipped them fully to be the most inspiring conductors of choirs, however long their experience or whatever further training they may seek. As I see it, 'they've either got it or they haven't', and it takes just minutes to find out. On that basis, the existence of superlative (amateur) choirs in this country is bound to be limited.

[DracoM]

An orchestral player friend says that on a new conductor's arrival for his / her first rehearsal, in the time it takes to walk from the door to the podium the orchestra has made up its collective mind about the incomer. Same with teachers new to a class apparently - five minutes max, and the multitude knows what it thinks. IME, that's quite close to some singers' experience of new conductors too!!

So what do the successful ones have that means they gain the choir's attention and commitment? Fascinating issue.

I like Gabriel Jackson's point that for Baltic choirs, singing is already so much a part of their identity as nations. Means presumably that it is an EXPECTED way of expressing themselves. Is that the same for British choirs? I suspect not, unless they have grown up in institutions / foundations that see singing as a critical part of the identity of the foundation?

[Cockney Sparrow]

Spot on! And it follows that a choral director needs a formidable skill set to get all of this from singers. In 40 years of choral singing and accompanying in this area, I have hardly come across any who really have what it takes, good musicians though many are. No doubt it's different in the choral centres of excellence.

Certainly agree about the skillset. In 43 years of committed but non-professional singing, and largely not in the most elevated circles, I've only come across one. And I found I had reached a new level in response to a choral director with high expectations, demanding, very committed to the choir and the music, and very highly skilled. (And also scheduling new music, in the mix).

Singing in this country has not had the boost of tenacity associated with national identity in the face of the oppressor - well done the Baltic states. Am I right - in Germany there is an expectation of participation in the local community - hence local choirs as one avenue for that. So, perhaps that same feeling sustains the more northern countries. Whereas here we have a culture of consumption and self obsessed satisfaction of the individual.

Only lately has there been a resurgence in the worth of singing (to any degree) -or consent to it - in the minds of the meddling politicians in charge of education. Whole generations can't sing a hymn at a wedding or funeral now..... So its a mixed picture - valuable work in the church and school and youth choirs where they exist, and the fortitude of local choirs and choral societies in continuing their activities. Community choirs have their value - everyone who would like to sing needs the opportunity and to feel they can fit in and enjoy the experience, we all have to start somewhere....

There are quite a few music/collegiate etc alumni in their 20's-30's but my impression is they are unwilling to join the choral groups as commonly constituted (trying not to reach for the term "run of the mill" which is a little denigrating) and are committed to career and family.

And yes, looking at my family - the younger generations would have to leave work early to make a rehearsal starting at 7.30. I think take up would be even lower if there was a 2nd rehearsal each week (surely it depends on how many public performances are scheduled - 3/year plus Christmas doesn't warrant that much rehearsal time, I would suggest......). No doubt an obvious point, but there will be groups where all the factors come together to bring about the ideal performance Gabriel describes, but in the UK there won't be that many of them. However, quite a few professional groups manage to sustain their existence - the likes of Stephen Layton's groups, The Sixteen, The Tallis Scholars etc so he can look to them for reliably achieving the ideal.

To make it otherwise, would need a commitment to music education and participation at primary level upwards, which we will never see in England - there needs to be a higher percentage of participants and supporters to match countries such as Latvia, Estonia (and South Africa, if my daughters report from the World Choir "Games" is to be believed - no doubt others also). We won't see that commitment because any of the political groups forming our governments, for their individual reasons, do not see enough merit in proper provision for music education for all in the state system (their own children are placed in situations where, of course, there is provision....). Unless the value of music, including singing, is recognised for all children in their school years, choral activity will remain, more or less, at the present levels (which is valiantly continued by the aforesaid and other groups). I wish Lloyd Webber and his co-campaigners the very best……

(I'm not a music educator - I know there are more than a few on this board. But we supported our children through youth music, including excellent youth choirs, and Mrs CS is a dedicated (still - remarkably) music teacher concerned to give as wide an access to a rewarding experience of music (singing, playing, listening) to all children in a school. (So I certainly feel I have some insight).
While I'm at it, there was a Radio 4 program yesterday 11.30am about minority representation in UK orchestras. It eventually moved on to ground addressing pertinent points. (It wasn't especially helpful, initially, to point out ethnic minorities are under represented in orchestras - its much more pertinent to point out that ethnic minorities are very under represented in participation in instrumental learning and playing from the earliest ages).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b071tgbk

[DracoM]

Thanks, sparrow.....Good stuff - lots to chew over here!

[Gabriel Jackson]

During fifty years of standing in front of choral directors, I've found only two or three 'who really have what it takes'. Many of the others remain the 'good musicans' you refer to, even exceptionally fine musicians, but often their training as organists hasn't equipped them fully to be the most inspiring conductors of choirs, however long their experience or whatever further training they may seek. As I see it, 'they've either got it or they haven't', and it takes just minutes to find out. On that basis, the existence of superlative (amateur) choirs in this country is bound to be limited.

I think it's also true that some conductors (and singers) don't appear to be very interested in going beyond making a nice sound and singing in tune and together. It's amazing how often in rehearsal I have asked a choir if they know what a word means (because they clearly don't, from the way they are singing) and the conductor hasn't seen fit to tell them (if s/he knows) and they haven't seen fit to ask/find out.

[Keraulophone]

I think it's also true that some conductors (and singers) don't appear to be very interested in going beyond making a nice sound and singing in tune and together. It's amazing how often in rehearsal I have asked a choir if they know what a word means (because they clearly don't, from the way they are singing) and the conductor hasn't seen fit to tell them (if s/he knows) and they haven't seen fit to ask/find out.

I agree with all of this. When it comes to the words, conductors don't allocate any/enough time to explaining their meaning or significance, or why the composer chose to set them. They don't see it as valuable rehearsal time well spent. Apart from giving an overview to children, if they are part of the choir, it's usually left to the individual singers to discover more if they feel so inclined. For instance, while we were preparing the rather tricky Church Music (2012) by Julian Philips, from Choirbook for the Queen, the music only began to make sense to me after I had spent a reasonable period of time with George Herbert's The Temple (1633); after which it not only made sense, but I really enjoyed the piece and felt all the effort had been worthwhile.

[Oldcrofter]

"It's amazing how often in rehearsal I have asked a choir if they know what a word means (because they clearly don't, from the way they are singing) and the conductor hasn't seen fit to tell them (if s/he knows) and they haven't seen fit to ask/find out. "

Do you mean words in English or in Latin, Gabriel ? They're the most sung languages in this country. And Welsh, of course.

Amateur choirs on occasion sing in German (Brahms, Bach, mediaeval as in Orff) or French (Cantique) or Italian opera (Va pensiero), very occasionally in Hebrew (Chichester Psalms)

Generally they're trying with different degrees of success to get somewhere near the correct pronunciation - and that in itself can take a great deal of rehearsal time to practice. If you start going into the meaning of each word, you lose the attention of at least half the choir. They want to get the pronunciation as accurate as possible - but are happy with a short paraphrase in English (or a translation they can look at in their own time if it's not at the beginning of the score or back of sheet music.)

On the whole, choral societies handle Latin pretty well - probably more than half the pieces they sing are in Latin. Whether most of the singers could tell you the meaning (including case - accusative/ablative etc. to make sense of it) I doubt that very much - even, dare I say, Oxbridge students !

[ardcarp]

During fifty years of standing in front of choral directors, I've found only two or three 'who really have what it takes'. Many of the others remain the 'good musicans' you refer to, even exceptionally fine musicians, but often their training as organists hasn't equipped them fully to be the most inspiring conductors of choirs, however long their experience or whatever further training they may seek. As I see it, 'they've either got it or they haven't', and it takes just minutes to find out. On that basis, the existence of superlative (amateur) choirs in this country is bound to be limited

I think that will chime with many of us, K!

engagement means going beyond simply making a "pleasant" sound and singing in tune and together, it means actually doing what's in the score in terms of dynamics, articulation etc. and bringing the music to life thereby, being willing to make sounds that aren't conventionally "nice" if that's what the music requires, actually thinking about the words and what they mean, and how that understanding can colour (in all senses) the performance in a detailed and vivid way, and some sense of emotional identification so there is conviction in the singing.

May I humbly suggest that performers/choirs/orchestras/conductors have been striving for and occasionally achieving all that for many generations.

[jean]

Well yes, except that a group of people used to singing together, senritive to each other and to the significance of what they are singing, will sometimes manage to rise above the fact of not being directed by one of the handful of truly inspired choral directors available.

If it were not so, how would Stile Antico manage?

[ardcarp]

Same as string quartets do.