Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

[french frank]

It seems to me that the great choral works are rather poorly done by at present. Sunday afternoons have traditionally not been particularly popular times for listening, so The Choir isn't well placed. Looking at the Media Centre Programme Information for the past few weeks, not one edition of The Choir has even been mentioned. Looking at last week's playlist, there were some modern pieces, most of them not very long, and of the 'classics' - Bach (5 mins), Tallis (4 mins), Victoria (poss. 14 mins, depending on how much speech there was at this point) and perhaps 9 mins of M. Haydn. In a programme 90 minutes long.

The feature Meet My Choir seems to be more for people who like to sing than for those who want to listen to the music. Tomorrow the guest will be Anne Reid talking about her favourite choral music.

Choirworks, on 23 Nov 1997 (9.00-11.15pm), was (very appropriate!):

"Brian Wright is joined by Duncan Druce, who talks about his edition of the Mozart Requiem and explains how the task of completing the work is complicated by uncertainty as to how much of the traditional version of the work, completed by Franz Sussmayr, is actually by Mozart. Mozart, completed Duncan Druce: Requiem in D minor. Yvonne Seymour (soprano), Catherine Denley (alto), Joseph Cornwell (tenor), Andrew Dale Forbes (bass), Yorkshire Bach Choir, Yorkshire Baroque Soloists, director Peter Seymour.

Or Sunday 26 Dec 1997, 10pm to 11.15:

"Presented by Paul Guinery. Saint-Saens: Oratorio de Noel, Op 12 (excs). Dresden Boys' Choir, Dresden Philharmonie/Martin Fleming. Humperdinck: Das Gluck von Edenhall. BBC Singers, BBC Concert Orchestra/Nicholas Kok. Stanford: Te Deum in B flat, Op 66. Carys Lane (soprano), Susan Bickley (mezzo), James Gilchrist (tenor), Michael George (bass), Leeds Philharmonic Chorus, BBC Philharmonic/Harry Christophers."

These give MUSIC the central role. In contrast, the current programme seems to be about - what?

[ardcarp]

I feel that many members of The Forum have given up listening to The Choir. The presentation is cringe-worthy and as you say does not cater for those of us with a genuine interest in choral music as listeners or performers. Our sub-forum, The Choir, does tend to attract most attention from Choral Evensong listeners. While this is a Good Thing, it would be even better if we discussed more often the wider choral scene. I take some blame for this as a Host for not introducing wider topics. I am personally entranced by the choral scene in Northern Europe, especially the Scandinavian and Baltic countries where there are some fine choirs. But your post is mainly about the BBC's coverage of choral music. Well, we get the odd concert which includes a choral work, but programmes devoted to discussion of choral music are, as you say, woefully lacking.

Incidentally, the latest edition of Choir & Organ has a profile of Edward Gardner, featuring his latest recording (Chandos) of Janacek's Glagolitic Mass with the Bergen Philharmonic Choir and Orchestra. This is a fascinating work. It's quite difficult for, say, a choral society to get its teeth into for both musical and linguistic reasons, and is renowned for its difficult organ solo. I might add that the solo tenor part needs nerves of steel too!

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/w/56240/Leos-Janacek-Glagolitic-Mass

[Nevilevelis]

These give MUSIC the central role. In contrast, the current programme seems to be about - what?

Personalities; as if we can't listen to or appreciate a musical work without the celebrity filter. Suzi Digby, Gareth Malone et al.

[doversoul1]

Through the Night often starts and/or includes choir works but I suppose it’s more or less hidden. This was on Monday

John Shea presents Franck's rarely heard "Redemption", part symphonic poem, part oratorio, performed by the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic and Radio Choir, under conductor Jean Fournet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b071765g

.. and this was Monday before
John Shea presents a performance from the Prague Radio SO of Janácek's Glagolitic Mass and Vecne Evangelium (The Eternal Gospel).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b070325f

Where is / would have been the best place to post?

As ff says, it will be good to have a programme on choral music and not ‘Let’s hear YOUR voice’ kind of programme.

[ardcarp]

Where is / would have been the best place to post?

Usually under The Choir heading. I know there is sometimes a choice to be made, especially when Early Music (or occasionally contemporary music) is involved. BTW, I think you, dovers, deserve a special award for always spotting the interesting things! I am ashamed to say I had never heard of Janacek's Vecne Redemptium.

[doversoul1]

Usually under The Choir heading.

I am rather scared of posting on The Choir as the Board seems to be inhabited by Super Scholars, and anything other than Choral Evensong needs a very good reason to be seen there.

Creating too many sub-boards isn’t a very good idea but I wonder if Choral Evensong can have its own board in the same way as BaL and CoW?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

BTW, I think you, dovers, deserve a special award for always spotting the interesting things!

I am ashamed to say I had never heard of Janacek's Vecne Redemptium.

Nor had I - but I would prefer to think that it is performers, broadcasters and recording companies who should be ashamed. (If I'd never heard of the Brahms "Requiem", on the other hand ... )

[french frank]

What I do know is that there was great disappointment and bewilderment - including from those involved in the production - when 'Choirworks' was axed in 2003. I collected some listener quotes on the BBC messageboards at the time the axing was a small rumour:

"a disturbing rumour ...such a move cannot be regarded as helpful", "an evil slanderous suggestion which could never be true", "a crassly stupid act", "a dereliction of the BBC's remit", "exactly the kind of educational and entertaining programme that Radio 3 are still very good at producing".

I badgered a BBC 'official' about the rumour at the time and finally extracted:

"Quite simple really. Choirworks is going but replaced by an extra edition of Performance on 3; this will include choral music as appropriate as will the other days of Perf on 3. It allows more flexible scheduling reflecting the musical life of the UK and beyond."

As to the 'more flexible scheduling', about 2 years later the 'flexibility' was abandoned when The Choir appeared (again on Sundays, 90 minutes) at the same time as Aled Jones was signed up to present on BBC television and Radio 2 programmes … Spot the difference and guess the strategy.

[ardcarp]

I am rather scared of posting on The Choir as the Board seems to be inhabited by Super Scholars

This is one of the problems about The Choir. If one compares the viewing numbers (quite high) compared with posting numbers, there must be a lot of people who don't share their views for whatever reason. I suspect (well I know in fact) that many are deterred (a) because there appear to be a load of 'experts' out there and (b) because personal opinion is likely to be met with a load of waspish comments! Draco and I wish it were otherwise, and all I can say is, be brave and post away.

I suspect that The Choir has more practising musicians on board than most other sub-forums, and there is possibly a tendency for a Two Ronnies scenario to develop, i.e. "I look down on him and he looks up to me". This is probably more perceived than actual, but maybe something to guard against. I apologise for making Roger Judd blush, but he is a wonderful example of someone who has vast experience and yet contributes in a delightfully informative and totally non-judgmental way.

But back to the OP, yes, Radio 3 should be ashamed not to have a dedicated choral music slot (at least one) which isn't of the Blue Peter ilk.

[VodkaDilc]

I am rather scared of posting on The Choir as the Board seems to be inhabited by Super Scholars, and anything other than Choral Evensong needs a very good reason to be seen there.

Creating too many sub-boards isn’t a very good idea but I wonder if Choral Evensong can have its own board in the same way as BaL and CoW?

I'm always a bit surprised when people refer to various boards. I'm quite oblivious to them. I come online and press 'New Posts' - I've no idea about where they come from.

[DracoM]

As a host on The Choir, I generally do not put up the kind of material that doversoul posts so expertly and regularly simply to avoid duplication! It is certaily not lack of interest and / or support.

I certainly agree with FF that the axing of Choirworks was and still is hugely lamented, and arguably one of the most serious 'rationalisations' R3 ever carried out. It dealt an unanaesthetised surgical blow to all who love and want choral music.

I would hazard that more people sing in UK as a social / musical activity than any other, such that to have a bitty doily like The Choir nonsense on R3 on Sundays is frankly an insult to those who do NOT want snippets of irrelevance, but the genuine excitement of reunion with some favourites AND longer acquaintance with the new or unfamiliar. Material that falls outside the stable of warhorses with the big ensembles who manifestly lobby to have their stuff broadcast gets very little traction on R3, such that both inside and indeed outside CE, the choral fare is remarkably limited. I totally endorse ardcarp in this.

The joy of CE is that 90% of it is weekly, LIVE, pretty but not aggressively varied, but practised par excellence in almost all cases by YOUNG experts all over the country. What beats me is that one would have thought the BBC would be falling over themselves as Baltic / Scandinavian countries are to showcase young talent, but instead we get largely the established ensembles - eg JEG anywhere and everywhere, The Sixteen, BBC Singers, and choral groups attached to the big London orchestras, and by and large that is more less that.......

The big European / EBU choral competitions that used to feature at some length centrally on R3 have been distilled to mere footnotes now and again only.

'The Choir' probably through its limp and un-exploratory format and presenting style seems to have turned off listeners who one might expect to be its target audience, and to tune in. I#d guess that it has achieved this invisibility largely because it has effectively trivialised choral singing, it is specifically designed as a programme that - as said upthread - seems to think that it is only validated if a 'celeb' not necessarily with choral connections in any way comes on to utter cliches, It is paranoid about playing anything longer than 20 minutes, particularly if it is not trad fare, and this trivialisation is aided and abetted by a presenter who, as ardcarp graphically but accurately suggests is 'cringeworthy'.

As a cocktail, that is pretty lethal. BUT the sad thing is that if the BBC look at what one suspects are the pretty poor listening figures, they might conclude that no-one is interested in choral music and thus ironicallyThe Choir could in its turn also be axed.

Which leaves real choral music devotees between a rock and a hard place IMO.

[doversoul1]

As we are on the subject, with an apology for the duplication but this is on tonight:

Marian Consort on Early Music Late

Elin Manahan Thomas introduces sacred music by William Byrd (including movements from his Mass for 4 voices), plus works by Strogers, Gerarde, Mundy and Peerson, performed by the Marian Consort in the Pfarrkirche St Severus in Boppard, as part of the 2015 RheinVokal Festival.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b071chpy

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm always a bit surprised when people refer to various boards. I'm quite oblivious to them. I come online and press 'New Posts' - I've no idea about where they come from.

[french frank]

Btw, ds, Choral Evensong isn't a board or forum - it's just individual threads, usually starting 'CE'. But, oh, no - I would not dare



A dedicated programme like Choirworks - sometimes 2 hours long - allowed for the regular performance of full length works - medieval/Renaissance, Classical, 19thc, contemporary. Plus substantial discussion (as with Duncan Druce). And Choirworks was (almost?) exclusively concert recordings, not CDs. Now there are only occasional broadcast concerts of, say, the Glagolitic Mass, Belshazzar's Feast, or the odd choral Prom.

[aeolium]

Yes, I'd like to see a programme like Choirworks back. I'm not sure about having it based almost exclusively around concert recordings though, unless like TtN it was able to trawl European concerts as well as UK ones. If it was restricted to UK concerts, there is the problem of unadventurous repertoire (as there is generally with symphony concerts). I would like a mixture of concert works, CDs if meaningfully used (i.e. to illustrate work that is not available in concert) and discussion.

Apropos Duncan Druce, he died just four months ago, and here is an obituary of him by Stephen Plaistow:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/nov/26/duncan-druce

A great loss of a wonderful musician.