Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

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  • Oldcrofter
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 226

    #76
    Thank you, Ardcarp - good to see a positive response. yes, the lists certainly exist - and so do the "choirs" - which I put in inverted commas because I know that there are those who would be very reluctant to call many of the groups "choirs". But I'm not going down that bumpy road !

    With regard to Richard Barrett's question about other countries, I think the situation in, for example Holland and Germany is very similar to the UK - a wide variety of choral groups singing a fairly similar repertoire. In Sweden, many choirs tend to be associated with churches - even though actual church attendance in Sweden is lower than in the UK. But it's in churches that young singers get the opportunity to sing solos and play pianos - i.e. build up their performance skills.

    Many towns and cities in Sweden have excellent youth choirs and a friend of mine has, over the past three or four years, created an British-style robed choir of boys and mainly young men at the church where he is in charge of music - I think there are about thirty of them in the choir. He has a great knowledge of, and love of the Anglican tradition, choral evensong and the like. There are only about three or four such choirs in Sweden.

    University student choirs traditionally are male voice - Orphei Drängar from Uppsala and Lunds Studentsångare from Lund are probably the best known. The sound, of course, is very different from Oxbridge college choirs and British male voice choirs.

    One major feature of choirs abroad is that they very often have quite an extensive repertoire of songs in English - ballads, songs from musicals, British and American folk songs, sea-shanties etc. In concerts, there is very little use of scores. They don't seem to have any problem singing from memory in English. Scandinavians also have a large repertoire of songs from the other Nordic countries.

    Danish choirs, for example, will know several settings of songs by the Swedish song-writer Evert Taube, which they sing in Swedish, of course. Similarly, Swedes will know Norwegian folk songs.

    Comment

    • ardcarp
      Late member
      • Nov 2010
      • 11102

      #77
      There is a distinction to be drawn between the amateur scene (which ranges from very fine to...well you can guess) and the professional. My impression, maybe a vague and unsubstantiated one, is that the amateur scene thrives in the UK to an extent which it doesn't in the Souhern European countries. Furthermore, in the UK there are a lot of good amateur singers around, maybe with church or school experience, who can sight read pretty well and make a decent sound. I know a bit about Norway. There are a few really good pro choirs (e.g. the Norwegian Soloists...who don't sing like soloists at all) and the fine choirs at Trondheim, but the amateur choirs tend to sing a lot of fairly simple verse-repeating stuff...but do it well with I suspect, a lot of rehearsal. France is another stamping ground, and here the amateur scene is, in parts, rather dire compared with what we have over here.

      I have an Italian story. A well-known choral conductor was running a Summer course in Italy. He phoned up in some desperation saying that no tenors had enrolled and would I as a favour come and spend a week in (well, I won't say where).
      "How much?" I asked.
      "£500 pounds", he replied.
      "And the travelling?" I asked.
      Silence at the other end, then,
      "No, you pay us £500"

      ...I didn't go.

      Comment

      • Eine Alpensinfonie
        Host
        • Nov 2010
        • 20577

        #78
        Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
        I have an Italian story. A well-known choral conductor was running a Summer course in Italy. He phoned up in some desperation saying that no tenors had enrolled and would I as a favour come and spend a week in (well, I won't say where).
        "How much?" I asked.
        "£500 pounds", he replied.
        "And the travelling?" I asked.
        Silence at the other end, then,
        "No, you pay us £500"

        ...I didn't go.
        That's a great story, and underlines a widespread attitude to singers. Three years ago, a choir had a "Come and Sing" day, culminating in a performance of Rutter's Requiem. The host choir charged people from all over the north of England to take part, but I was paid £100 for playing the oboe obligato for "The Lord is my Shepherd".

        Why didn't they charge me (and the cellist)?

        Comment

        • jean
          Late member
          • Nov 2010
          • 7100

          #79
          Originally posted by Oldcrofter View Post
          ...One major feature of choirs abroad is that they very often have quite an extensive repertoire of songs in English...In concerts, there is very little use of scores. They don't seem to have any problem singing from memory in English.
          Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
          ...the amateur choirs tend to sing a lot of fairly simple verse-repeating stuff...
          These two are not unconnected.

          Of course you can sing from memory if you stick to simple stuff, and not much of it; but how much more satisfying to learn to sight-read and tackle more complex music. I can't understand why people think it is so hard. They'd be ashamed to admit they couldn't read words.

          ...in the UK there are a lot of good amateur singers around, maybe with church or school experience, who can sight read pretty well...
          That tradition sets the bar in this country, though I'm noticing an increasing tendency to rely on nasty websites that pick out your part for you.

          Comment

          • jean
            Late member
            • Nov 2010
            • 7100

            #80
            Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
            Why didn't they charge me (and the cellist)?
            Because that's how it is. There are enough singers who want to do these things, and are prepared to pay.it's supply and demand. There are more good singers around than there are good amateur instrumentalists.

            (But sometimes tenors do get paid, as well.)

            Comment

            • Eine Alpensinfonie
              Host
              • Nov 2010
              • 20577

              #81
              Originally posted by jean View Post
              Because that's how it is. There are enough singers who want to do these things, and are prepared to pay.it's supply and demand.
              But that wasn't the case. As I was a member of the host choir, I intended to stand shoulder to shoulder with my colleagues. When I was handed a £100 cheque, I refused it, which greatly upset the treasurer.

              Comment

              • jean
                Late member
                • Nov 2010
                • 7100

                #82
                It is the case in general - you were the exception. All you needed to do to avoid upsetting the treasurer was accept the fee, and make a separate donation.

                Comment

                • Gabriel Jackson
                  Full Member
                  • May 2011
                  • 686

                  #83
                  Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                  My impression, maybe a vague and unsubstantiated one, is that the amateur scene thrives in the UK to an extent which it doesn't in the Souhern European countries.
                  It depends on what you mean by Southern European I suppose - there are plenty of fantastic choirs in Balkan countries.
                  Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                  Furthermore, in the UK there are a lot of good amateur singers around, maybe with church or school experience, who can sight read pretty well and make a decent sound.
                  So what? There is, or should be, a great deal more to choral singing than simply sight-reading well and making a decent sound. That these things are thought sufficient is part of the problem.

                  Comment

                  • Keraulophone
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 1979

                    #84
                    Originally posted by Oldcrofter View Post
                    Many towns and cities in Sweden have excellent youth choirs...
                    A Swedish ex-choral scholar friend sent me a poster of a concert he was involved with at St Görans Kyrka in Stockholm last November. The Stor Kör and Orkester put on the following programme: Hymnus Paradisi (HH), Toward the Unknown Region (VW), The Beatitudes (Pärt) and Song for Athene (JT) - impressive! How many amateur British choirs or choral societies could match that?

                    Incidentally, my 13-year-old daughter was up in Sheffied at the weekend with her school choir, taking part in the BBC's Songs of Praise School Choir of the Year semi-finals. She thought all the choirs sang well, but some put on more 'televisual' performances than others. Guess which choirs went through to the final? If you can bear it, you'll be able to judge for yourselves on Songs of Praise sometime in April, but performing arts institutions are more likely to provide what the TV producers are looking for than a traditional school choir, however well they may sing. For the latter, it's a bit of an unknown region. Does this (over-)emphasis on presentation bode well for the future of young people's choirs? At least she enjoyed visiting the Peak District.

                    Comment

                    • DracoM
                      Host
                      • Mar 2007
                      • 13000

                      #85
                      << A Swedish ex-choral scholar friend sent me a poster of a concert he was involved with at St Görans Kyrka in Stockholm last November. The Stor Kör and Orkester put on the following programme: Hymnus Paradisi (HH), Toward the Unknown Region (VW), The Beatitudes (Pärt) and Song for Athene (JT) - impressive! How many amateur British choirs or choral societies could match that? >>

                      I imagine they sang this rewarding and demanding programme with commitment and engagement, and received much applause from the audience?

                      Comment

                      • subcontrabass
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 2780

                        #86
                        Originally posted by Keraulophone View Post
                        A Swedish ex-choral scholar friend sent me a poster of a concert he was involved with at St Görans Kyrka in Stockholm last November. The Stor Kör and Orkester put on the following programme: Hymnus Paradisi (HH), Toward the Unknown Region (VW), The Beatitudes (Pärt) and Song for Athene (JT) - impressive! How many amateur British choirs or choral societies could match that?
                        March 22nd 2014: Bristol Bach Choir - Tavener Song for Athene and The Lament for the Mother of Giod followed by the best performance I have heard of Rachmaninoff's All-Night Vigil.

                        Comment

                        • Keraulophone
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 1979

                          #87
                          They did.

                          When on Swedish tours (our diocese is twinned with one near Stockholm), I have been struck by the warmth and appreciation with which British choral music has been received in Sweden.

                          Comment

                          • DracoM
                            Host
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 13000

                            #88
                            I'm a great admirer of the Scandinavian way with English music too. They have a wonderfully fastidious way with the diction and delivery, and usually a rich sound.

                            Comment

                            • Keraulophone
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 1979

                              #89
                              Originally posted by subcontrabass View Post
                              Rachmaninoff's All-Night Vigil.
                              Tricky stuff - congrats Bristol Bach Choir!

                              With the Stor Kör, I was struck by the particular devotion they had to the choral music of our country.

                              Comment

                              • Gabriel Jackson
                                Full Member
                                • May 2011
                                • 686

                                #90
                                Originally posted by DracoM View Post
                                I imagine they sang this rewarding and demanding programme with commitment and engagement, and received much applause from the audience?
                                And you wonder why so few people contribute to these threads

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