Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

[Gabriel Jackson]

I suspect what you refer to as the 'great cathedral and college' tradition...which includes the many gifted singers inspired by it...is stronger than it has ever been, with many excellent amateur chamber choirs as well as the professional ensembles.

Actually, I'm not sure there are many excellent amateur chamber choirs in this country. There are a few outstanding ones and many that are good but the average standard of amateur choral singing is quite a bit higher in Scandinavian and Eastern European countries, I would say.

[DracoM]

Why?
THAT is the crucial question which underlies a lot of what has been posted here.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Why?
THAT is the crucial question which underlies a lot of what has been posted here.

If that's addressed at me, it is quite clear that more people per head of population sing in choirs in Eastern Europe, and almost certainly that is the same in Scandinavian countries too. So there are simply more choirs. In the Baltic states, which I have more knowledge of, singing is central to notions of national identity and there are many reasons for that, not least a very long history of occupation, where singing (which requires neither money to buy instruments nor education) was one thing everybody could do, and one way everyone could celebrate who they were. (It is also true that singing may be declining - elite choirs finding it harder to recruit good new members than used the be the case.) It is also true that Baltic choirs take the business of singing very seriously, they work very hard at it. They tend to rehearse more than British choirs - the Youth Choir Kamēr..., whose 25th Anniversary concert I was involved in, had their normal two weekly rehearsals (how many British choirs regularly rehearse twice a week?), followed by 10 hours of rehearsal on the Saturday, another four the following day and a dress rehearsal on the Monday with the concert in the evening. No one particularly wanted to spend all that time working, of course, but they felt they had to, in order for the concert (fully staged, in the Latvian National Opera - how many choirs have the ambition to do that?) to be as good as it could possibly could be. Baltic societies are more respectful and deferential to artistic and musical authority figures - composers, conductors... - than we are (probably a legacy of the USSR) so I think singers are more willing to do whatever is demanded of them, whether they like it or not. So the attitude is different - choral excellence is just more important to people than it is here, I would say.

[ardcarp]

They tend to rehearse more than British choirs

I can believe that! There are quite a lot of 'get a black folder on the day' choirs who do a great job, but who don't reach the standard of polish they are capable of.

Baltic societies are more respectful and deferential to artistic and musical authority figures - composers, conductors.

I can believe that too!

However...

Actually, I'm not sure there are many excellent amateur chamber choirs in this country

..it depends what you call 'many'. I'm not so in touch as I used to be, but I know of ones in Leicester, Birmingham, Cheltenham, Bristol, Bath and Exeter from personal experience that are excellent. But I'm quite happy to swap the word 'good' or 'capable' for 'excellent' for the majority, which are far better (and definitely more numerous) than you find, for instance, in France, Italy, Spain........

[Vox Humana]

There are quite a lot of 'get a black folder on the day' choirs who do a great job, but who don't reach the standard of polish they are capable of.

I have met people both on and in front of the rostrum who actually think this is the way to do it. In their somewhat blinkered world they imagine it's what defines a professional musician: "They turn up and the music just happens". One of them even opined, "It's how it should be." I have to admit that the singers were superbly competent, but just coming in and sight-reading perfectly doesn't produce magnificently crafted interpretations as has often been clear even on CD. In the real professional world there is, of course, the small matter of financial viability to consider, but I'm still inclined to regard that as a reason rather than an excuse. It's a bit of a bugbear of mine, I'm afraid.

I'm not so in touch as I used to be, but I know of ones in Leicester, Birmingham, Cheltenham, Bristol, Bath and Exeter from personal experience that are excellent. But I'm quite happy to swap the word 'good' or 'capable' for 'excellent' for the majority, which are far better (and definitely more numerous) than you find, for instance, in France, Italy, Spain........

Here is an amateur choral society doing its best. The thing that really stands out for me is the average age of both the choir and the audience. Where are the youngsters? I can't help feeling that this (relative) absence pinpoints the problem. It seems to me that Britain has a very real culture problem when it comes to classical music and, I suspect, one that is probably worse than anywhere else in Europe. A good few other countries put us to shame, as has been highlighted already. I'm always tempted to point the finger at the "pop" music explosion from the 50s onwards, but, actually I'm sure it goes back much further than that - probably even beyond that old jibe, "Das Land ohne Musik". It undoubtedly an extremely complex problem, and one that, if solvable at all, would need wholesale rethinking of our education policy for musical appreciation.

[Gabriel Jackson]

There are quite a lot of 'get a black folder on the day' choirs who do a great job, but who don't reach the standard of polish they are capable of.

It's not a lack of polish that bothers me so much as a lack of engagement with what they are singing.

[rauschwerk]

One important reason, I believe, why youngsters are not seen in choirs much nowadays is that their jobs are more demanding than, for example, the ones which my wife and I had 30 or more years ago. Even after ferrying the kids to music lessons etc. we still had the time and energy to go to a weekly dancing class and I pursued my musical activities (choral singing and playing the piano) with vigour. In my job it was considered ok to work ones contracted number of hours and to take an hour for lunch (seems like another world now). Nowadays all the employees I know, such as schoolteachers, social workers and managers, are under the most ridiculous pressure and have little or no time or energy to spare from work and family life.

[ardcarp]

I have met people both on and in front of the rostrum who actually think this is the way to do it. In their somewhat blinkered world they imagine it's what defines a professional musician: "They turn up and the music just happens". One of them even opined, "It's how it should be."

I most certainly do not think it's the way it should be! I have to admit to being one of the 'turn up and get a black folder' people these days, but that is because of circumstances and it is certainly not ideal. Of course performing is more than just getting the dots right, and I would dearly love to be able to spend much more time. I do not think, however, that as Gabriel suggests, there is necessarily a lack of commitment to the music. Not in my case anyway.

Yes, there is an age gap in many choirs. Some chamber choirs have a 'choral scholar' scheme with places for young people still at school or at university. As suggested, people do disappear to jobs which demand a lot of their time, but the experience and pleasure they have gained is not wasted. Many will return when life permits!

Nowadays all the employees I know, such as schoolteachers, social workers and managers, are under the most ridiculous pressure and have little or no time or energy to spare from work and family life.

That is the case. I thank God daily that I am not one such.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I do not think, however, that as Gabriel suggests, there is necessarily a lack of commitment to the music.

I didn't say there was a lack of commitment to the music, but often a lack of engagement with it.

[Oldcrofter]

http://www.choirs.org.uk/england.htm

Have a look at these pages of choirs in England listed county by county to see the number & variety - and these are the ones which have web-sites. The numbers alone show commitment, though how you measure/observe "engagement" I'm not at all sure. It's almost certainly true (in my experience) that choral societies are predominantly in the older age bracket - as are their audiences, but I think there are good reasons to be optimistic about the future for a whole variety of choral singing. And that's what is developing - community groups and choirs, harmony groups, chamber choirs, male and female choruses (especially in large conurbations), youth choirs, small a cappella ensembles and so on.

One traditional type that is much diminished is the local robed church choir. I have no strong feelings about that - but I believe there is much to be optimistic about in the amateur music world - there are numerous orchestras and a great amount and variety of choral music making among young and old. Much of it will have little or no appeal to quite a few contributors to this board - but just have a look again at the choirs listed on Choirs on the Net - doesn't that give you some cause for optimism ? OK - I can see the replies of "No-o-o-o !" coming in already !

http://www.choirs.org.uk/england.htm

[ardcarp]

What a splendid list, oldcrofter. I'd no idea it existed! I think your optimism about the future is great, BTW. I just wish singing (and instrumental music for that matter) were practised by a wider cross-section of our British class system. The CBSO have a great outreach scheme which I hope will bear fruit.

[DracoM]

Erm.............Gj, a bit puzzled: what's the difference between 'commitment to' and 'engagement with'?
Is one better than the other?

[Richard Barrett]

I didn't say there was a lack of commitment to the music, but often a lack of engagement with it.

Nor, if I understand you correctly, is this a matter of how many choral societies etc. there are in a given country, as much as a general attitude towards music. I don't know much about choral music or choirs but what I do know is that I've heard amateur choirs from the Baltic states give astonishing performances of music that I think in the UK wouldn't be tackled by such groups at all. That is perhaps one aspect of "engagement". And it doesn't apply only to choral music by any means.

I wonder how many people here apart from Gabriel have much first-hand experience of choirs in countries other than the UK.

[jean]

I wonder how many people here apart from Gabriel have much first-hand experience of choirs in countries other than the UK.

I had two periods working abroad in the 1990s, in Italy and in Poland, and I sang in local choirs while I was there. In both cases the choirs rehearsed twice a week; they had to, as they did not sight-read at all and everything had to be learned by heart. Neither country has, as far as I could see, either the large choral society or the church music tradition that we have here.

I lived in a very small Italian town, well-known for its connexion with the Alpini regiment who have a strong male voice choral tradition. Here are some of them singing one of their most famous songs. The choir I sang in had developed from an Alpini choir, and sang a varied, more 'classical' repertoire - most interesting to me were the dialect madrigals of the Triaca Musicale by Giovanni Croce. Here is one. I loved singing singing these things with people who still spoke the same dialect.

But I confess the time it took to learn everything really was too much. I looked on it as an opportunity to improve my Italian. The standard was quite high, but we could never do that many concerts because we'd have to keep repeating the small amount on music we knew.

There were lots of these small choirs around in the small towns of the Veneto. There used to be competitive concorsi, and there was Venezia in Coro, a day when we all descended on Venice and were assigned a church to sing in - sometimes in the course of a Mass, but sadly that just meant the odd motet, not a mass setting with plainsong propers or anything. It looks from the website as though it's become more international. The only times I ever heard any of the large choral works was when they were sung in concert by the chorus of La Fenice.


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[Gabriel Jackson]

Nor, if I understand you correctly, is this a matter of how many choral societies etc. there are in a given country, as much as a general attitude towards music. I don't know much about choral music or choirs but what I do know is that I've heard amateur choirs from the Baltic states give astonishing performances of music that I think in the UK wouldn't be tackled by such groups at all. That is perhaps one aspect of "engagement". And it doesn't apply only to choral music by any means.

That's exactly right, Richard! For me (and much of this could be said of instrumentalists too), engagement means going beyond simply making a "pleasant" sound and singing in tune and together, it means actually doing what's in the score in terms of dynamics, articulation etc. and bringing the music to life thereby, being willing to make sounds that aren't conventionally "nice" if that's what the music requires, actually thinking about the words and what they mean, and how that understanding can colour (in all senses) the performance in a detailed and vivid way, and some sense of emotional identification so there is conviction in the singing.