Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

[DracoM]

[french frank]

That does at least show that the BBC using its own musical resources can showcase work which would rarely for commercial reasons have a chance of public performance:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b071cyg7

Indeed it does - and the sort of initiative to compare with programming Havergal Brian at the Proms. And yes again - the BBC NOW on St David's Day with an entire concert devoted to Grace Williams.

[doversoul1]

- I just wish they'd do it a little more frequently.

Here's another;


Through the Night Friday 26

John Shea presents a concert from the 2014 BBC Proms including Duruflé's Requiem with soloists Ruby Hughes and Gerald Finley.

1:15 AM
Duruflé, Maurice (1902-1986)
Requiem Op.9
Ruby Hughes (soprano), Gerald Finley (baritone), BBC National Chorus of Wales, Thierry Escaich (organ), National Youth Choir of Wales, BBC National Orchestra of Wales, Thierry Fischer (conductor)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07178qd

[ardcarp]

No doubt this has been said many times before, but WHY are viewing figures considered the yardstick for Arts programming? One would hope that a publicly funded broadcaster's output might reflect higher ideals. In any case, viewing-figures do not relate to profit or financial viability in a non-commercial organisation. Why should the Powers That Be expect R3 to behave like one?

[french frank]

No doubt this has been said many times before, but WHY are viewing figures considered the yardstick for Arts programming? One would hope that a publicly funded broadcaster's output might reflect higher ideals. In any case, viewing-figures do not relate to profit or financial viability in a non-commercial organisation. Why should the Powers That Be expect R3 to behave like one?

There will be BBC predators lining up to claim the R3 airwaves if it doesn't 'improve its performance'

[jean]

Interesting thread.

I wasn't here when most of it was unfolding, so I'm not sure how far my random reflections will be of interest.

Here are some of them, anyway.

I was always quite surprised in the days of Choirworks that choral music was allowed a programme all to itself, unlike The Symphony, say, or The Concerto it doesn't, after all, form a very large proportion of the standard Classical (in the broadest sense!) repertoire. Not that there isn't a great deal that's never performed at all, never mind on Radio 3: a glance at the back page of any old Novello score you happen to have will reveal just what riches lie ready for discovery.

It's different with Early Music of course, of which a far greater proportion consists of unaccompanied choral work for liturgical use. Given that it's quite a niche market within Classical music (am I right about that?) it doesn't do too badly for airtime, especially if you include TTN.

The other interesting questions are what the role of singing is within our society and how it's come to be this way, and how far the latest incarnation of the Chior responds to that.

Let me think abut that for a bit.

[french frank]

I was always quite surprised in the days of Choirworks that choral music was allowed a programme all to itself, unlike The Symphony, say, or The Concerto it doesn't, after all, form a very large proportion of the standard Classical (in the broadest sense!) repertoire.

One could certainly say it was 'luxury' for lovers of choral music (and presumably Nick Kenyon was one); but after all, the very fact that 'the Symphony' forms such an important part of the repertoire guarantees that it will get plenty of airtime.

It's different with Early Music of course, of which a far greater proportion consists of unaccompanied choral work for liturgical use. Given that it's quite a niche market within Classical music (am I right about that?) it doesn't do too badly for airtime, especially if you include TTN.

It has done quite well, but given large choral works stretch right from the medieval masses, through Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, through the 19th c to Elgar and contemporary works &c, it is a very broad range. And it needs space for whole works.

The other interesting questions are what the role of singing is within our society and how it's come to be this way, and how far the latest incarnation of the Chior responds to that.

Singing in choirs has become much more popular, especially singing a very broad range of (non-classical) music. Certainly in Bristol some have waiting lists (for the Gasworks Choir, for example) and I'm sure The Choir had that in mind (hence 'Meet My Choir'), Gareth Malone/Military Wives and so on. The whole point of it was to interest people who sang, or might be interested in singing, rather than those who were interested in hearing the 'classic' repertoire. Much more 'interactive'. But the 'any sort of music that people enjoy singing' brief was quite a distance from Choir Works.

[Sir Velo]

No doubt this has been said many times before, but WHY are viewing figures considered the yardstick for Arts programming? One would hope that a publicly funded broadcaster's output might reflect higher ideals. In any case, viewing-figures do not relate to profit or financial viability in a non-commercial organisation. Why should the Powers That Be expect R3 to behave like one?

One should remember that these all important viewing figures include those who watch faute de mieux; those who switch over/off within minutes; have on as background as a means of clearing the kids off to bed...

[Vox Humana]

They regard the EMS as a programme for a 'specialist' audience which can just about sit still for 20 mins. Essential Classics and Breakfast OTOH......

But it didn't stop them truncating Verbum caro. For me the repeats in Tudor respond settings have a cumulative effect that adds to the effect and formal stature of the pieces and omitting them does the music a disservice.

[ardcarp]

Imagine truncating Videte Miraculum.

But back to the BBC....

There will be BBC predators lining up to claim the R3 airwaves if it doesn't 'improve its performance'

....yes, but can't the idiots see that 'performance' in the Arts is not measured by listener figures and statistics?

[french frank]

....yes, but can't the idiots see that 'performance' in the Arts is not measured by listener figures and statistics?

Tough question, ardcarp, tough question (But the idiots, of course, can't).

[jean]

But it didn't stop them truncating Verbum caro. For me the repeats in Tudor respond settings have a cumulative effect that adds to the effect and formal stature of the pieces and omitting them does the music a disservice.

In any respond settings. But to be fair the performers themselves often miss out some repeats, especially the more extensive one in the last of each group of the Tenebrae responsories, for example.

It's a bit like arguments over da capo arias in Handel operas.

.

[jean]

Singing in choirs has become much more popular, especially singing a very broad range of (non-classical) music. Certainly in Bristol some have waiting lists (for the Gasworks Choir, for example)

Yes.

I'm not sure there ever was a Golden Age when everyone sang, even when most people went to church and were subjected to old-style school assemblies. At my highly academic grammar school in the 50s for example music and art were not considered important; there were sporadic instrumental lessons for individuals but there was no music O level taught, and class music consisted only of singing, which - and this is the point - most girls had a positive dislike of, to the extent that I can recall lessons when the entire class refused to open their mouths or make any sound at all (the unfortunate music master, the only male in the school, was particularly susceptible to that sort of treatment).

You could say there were two main choral traditions in this country - that of the great cathedral and college choirs, and that of the large choral societies, many in the industrial cities of the North. The Male Voice choir is a subset of this, perhaps. I'm not sure how much contact there ever was between the two; the latter certainly included a wide social range. I've sometimes snobbishly assumed they didn't read music very well, but there was a tradition of tonic sol-fa as can be seen from old scores; dropped perhaps, and never replaced.

I was lucky in that when I started singing in London in the 60s I fell in with lots of tenors and basses who'd come through the university/college tradition, and you had to work hard at your sightreading to keep up (I was unlucky in that there were no cathedral girl choirs in those days of course!) For the next twenty years or so, I sang early music with lots of small groups, but by the time I left London in 1990, audiences had dwindled; perhaps this was a result of the rise of the professional groups taking on this repertoire?

Things do seem to be looking up, though, and I'm sure the despised Gareth has contributed. When I was last in London I picked up a programme for this, which was new to me.

...and I'm sure The Choir had that in mind (hence 'Meet My Choir'), Gareth Malone/Military Wives and so on. The whole point of it was to interest people who sang, or might be interested in singing, rather than those who were interested in hearing the 'classic' repertoire. Much more 'interactive'. But the 'any sort of music that people enjoy singing' brief was quite a distance from Choir Works.

Yes, different kinds of programme, however much the potential audiences might overlap. I have usually left The Choir on after Choral Evensong, if I've nothing else to do; and though it's annoyingly bitty, I have learned things. I've been surprised at its appeal, too; an Early Music group I sing with thought it might be nice for us to apply to be on Meet my Choir, but I dissuaded them.

One last question...has anyone ever been a member of a choir that had a waiting list consisting only of tenors?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There are claims that more people are singing in choirs, but I'm a little sceptical about this. There are new choirs around, but these tend to be "come and sing, no audition" choirs that are limited in what can be achieved, unless sight-singing becomes a major part of every rehearsal. You would have an orchestra made up from the musically illiterate. A local choral society has just folded, only to be replaced by a community choir. This happens much more than is healthy for quality choral singing.

One last question...has anyone ever been a member of a choir that had a waiting list consisting only of tenors?

The universal shortage of tenors has more to do with the fact that there are very few real tenors around. I sang 2nd bass in the York Chapter House Choir for several years, but have strained my voice singing 2nd tenor in a different choir for the last 5 years. In the end, it was all too much, and I've been allowed to return to the basses - sheer bliss.

[ardcarp]

You could say there were two main choral traditions in this country - that of the great cathedral and college choirs, and that of the large choral societies, many in the industrial cities of the North. The Male Voice choir is a subset of this

Yes indeed, but as you have mentioned, and as has been mentioned upthread, there is now a burgeoning of local singing groups encouraged I believe by the Garetm Malone on TV thing. These vary very much in what they do, but are an opportunity for those who probably don't read music but who like to sing (or even discover their voice for the first time) to have a go. There is usually a strong social aspect to it, and some of the leaders are inspiring people. Often they sing the lighter side of the repertory. I don't think any of us should dream of being sniffy about all this. It's a Good Thing.

I suspect what you refer to as the 'great cathedral and college' tradition...which includes the many gifted singers inspired by it...is stronger than it has ever been, with many excellent amateur chamber choirs as well as the professional ensembles. I suspect that the Choral Society/Male Voice Choir/Operatic Society (which you didn't mention) tradition is slightly on the wane, though there are of course notable exceptions. Within a fifteen mile radius of the rather remote rural area where I live there used to be two Amateur Operatic Societies (one entirely G&S) and three Choral Societies. Over the past 30 years they have amalgamated themselves to one of each, with a (shall we say) silver-haired membership. Is this a national trend?