Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

[teamsaint]

I wonder, and this is just sunday afternoon idle thought, if the apparent low standing of Choral music compared to instrumental , is something of a media reaction to the ubiquity of the song in popular music.

In any case,although there may be some truth in the assertion, it isn't universally true for the listening public.Big concerts of the choral set pieces in cathedrals do pretty big box office ,and Proms which do feature choral music seem to sell very well.
The listening public also take the many very good singing ensembles ,such as The Sixteen , pretty seriously, and plenty of these groups seem to be in great demand, and to record plenty of CDs, the latter of which isn't necessarily true of orchestral outfits.

[VodkaDilc]

I wonder, and this is just sunday afternoon idle thought, if the apparent low standing of Choral music compared to instrumental , is something of a media reaction to the ubiquity of the song in popular music.

In any case,although there may be some truth in the assertion, it isn't universally true for the listening public.Big concerts of the choral set pieces in cathedrals do pretty big box office ,and Proms which do feature choral music seem to sell very well.

Isn't organ music neglected on R3 as well? Perhaps both choral and organ music are thought to be associated with the church, which is, in turn, not seen as appealing to the targetted listener.

[french frank]

10:30
Sarah features excerpts from the Building a Library recommendation from last Saturday's Record Review
Mozart
Requiem

So the full length work is 30 mins of Schubert? It just goes to emphasise that Radio 3 doesn't have a spot where full length choral works can be broadcast (and I'd doubt whether late morning on a weekday is that suitable) other than the odd concert. But why not a dedicated spot in the afternoon? There's no shortage of material.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Perhaps both choral and organ music are thought to be associated with the church, which is, in turn, not seen as appealing to the targetted listener.

I think that's very likely true. I once did a talk about the choral medium to a group of student composers and they all associated choral music with the church, and were surprised that secular choral music existed at all!

[Gabriel Jackson]

In any case,although there may be some truth in the assertion, it isn't universally true for the listening public.Big concerts of the choral set pieces in cathedrals do pretty big box office ,and Proms which do feature choral music seem to sell very well.

That may well be true, but the vast majority of the choral repertoire, across the centuries, is a cappella. Why is it, for example, that there are never any full-length Proms by groups like the BBC Singers, or the Tallis Scholars, but instead their concerts are always shunted off into a late-night slot?

The listening public also take the many very good singing ensembles ,such as The Sixteen , pretty seriously, and plenty of these groups seem to be in great demand, and to record plenty of CDs, the latter of which isn't necessarily true of orchestral outfits.

The likes of The Sixteen are taken seriously by their audience. In any given year how many people hear The Sixteen in concert, I wonder, or the Tallis Scholars, compared to the number that have heard the Philharmonia, say? The last Tallis Scholars concert I was at - their 2000th - was in St John's, Smith Square and even that relatively small hall wasn't full.

For small, specialist choral ensembles CDs don't, of course, cost as much to make as large-scale orchestral or opera recordings; that, and the fact that quite a bit of the repertoire such groups record is previously unrecorded or little-recorded is, I guess, why they are still making recordings when some orchestras aren't.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

So the full length work is 30 mins of Schubert? It just goes to emphasise that Radio 3 doesn't have a spot where full length choral works can be broadcast (and I'd doubt whether late morning on a weekday is that suitable) other than the odd concert.

On the contrary, rejigging the morning schedule to accommodate a significant choral slot could be exactly what the doctor ordered.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

10:30
Sarah features excerpts from the Building a Library recommendation from last Saturday's Record Review
Mozart
Requiem

Observe that the website begins each paragraph with the word "Sarah". The soporific policy of kissing the hems of presenters' robes shows little sign of diminishing.

[french frank]

Observe that the website begins each paragraph with the word "Sarah". The soporific policy of kissing the hems of presenters' robes shows little sign of diminishing.

The curious thing is that it's a policy/strategy and therefore someone thinks this will achieve something in particular. Broadcasting lore, and I expect it's to do with engineering the audience you want, rather than serving the audience you've got.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The curious thing is that it's a policy/strategy and therefore someone thinks this will achieve something in particular. Broadcasting lore, and I expect it's to do with engineering the audience you want, rather than serving the audience you've got.

Are they really naïve enough to think that will happen? It reminds me so much of the attitudes I referred to (see post 21) in schools. It doesn't work, and persisting with the policy just means it won't work for longer.

[french frank]

On the contrary, rejigging the morning schedule to accommodate a significant choral slot could be exactly what the doctor ordered.

It's an interesting point. I certainly think something should be done to rejig the morning schedule. But most radio listening is still done 'live' (i.e. not On Demand) so I think the matter of the kind of programmes needed at particular times of day should be considered. And, contrariwise, at what time of day a particular programme is best aired for live listening.

Assuming that a choral programme is on once a week, and needs to be at least 90 minutes long, I think the old Choirworks was well placed on a Sunday evening.

Coincidentally I've just listened to Sir Nick's BaL on the Mozart - and the very Choirworks with Duncan Druce that I alluded to earlier was indeed broadcast under NK's controllership. In fact, he launched the series on Oct 10 1993, when the first programme was:

First in a regular series featuring oratorios and other large choral works. Tonight, presenter George Guest talks with conductor John Eliot Gardiner about the Monteverdi Choir and his approach to a baroque masterpiece.
Bach Mass in B minor

[doversoul1]

Today’s Early Music Show used 20 minutes out of one hour on one work. If this ratio is to be transferred to Essential Classics… If it can be done on one programme why not on other programmes?

By the way, this EMS is another choir programme: John Sheppard, and it was most enjoyable as well as informative.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b071chp5

[ardcarp]

If it can be done on one programme why not on other programmes?

They regard the EMS as a programme for a 'specialist' audience which can just about sit still for 20 mins. Essential Classics and Breakfast OTOH......

[french frank]

From a purely theoretical point of view I'd say that the breakfast programme is far less crucial to Radio 3 (and, indeed, to Classic FM) than to Radio 1, 2 and 4 - in fact to most 'mass audience' stations.

Leaving aside significant differences in length, start and finish times, some patterns are fairly clear:

R2 has a 3-hour programme which captures 61% of its total audience. It starts at 6.30 (like R3) but extends to 9.30, so has an extra half hour tacked on the end. That hardly accounts for the difference with R3, when last quarter Breakfast captured a mere 26% of the audience.

R4 - also 3 hours long - attracted 64%, and mutatis mutandis for comparative purposes, R1 would probably be nearer 50%. CFM has a slightly earlier start for its 3-hour programme, yet still only attracts 32%. My feeling would be that a fairly substantial number of R3 listeners simply don't bother with Breakfast, preferring the Today programme - if they listen to radio at all - and the evidence suggests that many 'CFM listeners' are 'Radio 4' listeners who want some classical easy listening during the rest of the day.

The 'value' to Radio 3 of an 'easy listening' breakfast show is that it will attract some new listeners who don't like CFM: they may listen to nothing else on Radio 3 (being either at work or watching television in the evening), but if they listen for a mere 20 minutes they count as extra listeners. People who listen to the concert, Composer of the Week, or even just Record Review on a Saturday will not count as extra listeners if they listen to Breakfast as they can only be counted once, no matter how long they listen for.

However, if R3 were to put, say, a full-length choral work on once a week on Essential Classics many listeners would switch off because Essential Classics is also geared towards listeners who want to flit from one piece to another with regular breaks for a bit of fun. Those who wanted to listen to the choral work would need to remember that Friday@11 was worth listening to.

[aeolium]

Although the general criticism about the treatment of choral music on R3 still seems valid, it's worth noting that tomorrow evening there is a live concert performance of a very rarely performed long choral work, Grace Williams' Missa Cambrensis, which has only ever received one previous performance in 1971. That does at least show that the BBC using its own musical resources can showcase work which would rarely for commercial reasons have a chance of public performance:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b071cyg7

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Although the general criticism about the treatment of choral music on R3 still seems valid, it's worth noting that tomorrow evening there is a live concert performance of a very rarely performed long choral work, Grace Williams' Missa Cambrensis, which has only ever received one previous performance in 1971. That does at least show that the BBC using its own musical resources can showcase work which would rarely for commercial reasons have a chance of public performance:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b071cyg7

- I just wish they'd do it a little more frequently.