Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

[oddoneout]

I feel that many members of The Forum have given up listening to The Choir. The presentation is cringe-worthy and as you say does not cater for those of us with a genuine interest in choral music as listeners or performers.

I have I think a somewhat higher tolerance of the soundbite approach than many forum members, but even I have given up on The Choir. The talk is largely waffle and fill and the pieces played have no connection to each other, but sound like a hasty pick and mix done on the way to the studio. As for 'Sara's choral classic', that is just plain misleading; unless the piece in question fits into the slot allocated it won't be played in its entirety. I wouldn't mind quite so much about that if there was some meaningful talk prior and the 'extract' was used to illustrate what was said.
The programme is a disgraceful waste of airtime.

[Keraulophone]

St Severus in Boppard

A pleasant, sleepy town in the Rhine Gorge, twinned with Truro, Cornwall. Good base for a choir tour.

[oddoneout]

This is one of the problems about The Choir. If one compares the viewing numbers (quite high) compared with posting numbers, there must be a lot of people who don't share their views for whatever reason. I suspect (well I know in fact) that many are deterred (a) because there appear to be a load of 'experts' out there and (b) because personal opinion is likely to be met with a load of waspish comments! Draco and I wish it were otherwise, and all I can say is, be brave and post away.

I suspect that The Choir has more practising musicians on board than most other sub-forums, and there is possibly a tendency for a Two Ronnies scenario to develop, i.e. "I look down on him and he looks up to me". This is probably more perceived than actual, but maybe something to guard against. I apologise for making Roger Judd blush, but he is a wonderful example of someone who has vast experience and yet contributes in a delightfully informative and totally non-judgmental way.

A commendably carefully worded post which(rather sadly) tends to align with my perception and experience, and I don't always feel inclined to stick my head above the parapet and risk having it used as target practice.

[oddoneout]

If it was restricted to UK concerts, there is the problem of unadventurous repertoire (as there is generally with symphony concerts). I would like a mixture of concert works, CDs if meaningfully used (i.e. to illustrate work that is not available in concert) and discussion.

I would like to hear more of and about singing traditions elsewhere in the world, some of which have, after all, informed works by western composers I believe. This was something that Pied Piper was good at doing, and it was a pleasure to hear David Munrow's excitement and interest in finding apparently similar music in widely separated parts of the world. That could(and did) lead neatly to explanations about modes, and consideration of the movement of ancestor tribes.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I am personally entranced by the choral scene in Northern Europe, especially the Scandinavian and Baltic countries where there are some fine choirs.

...of course, when I guest-presented The Choir, it was ALL about Baltic music...!

(Afficionados of Baltic choirs might be interested in this, the latest release by the amazing Youth Choir Kamēr... http://www.musicweb-international.co...ber_KCD013.htm)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

. . . have given up listening to The Choir. The presentation is cringe-worthy and as you say does not cater for those of us with a genuine interest in choral music as listeners or performers. . . Well, we get the odd concert which includes a choral work, but programmes devoted to discussion of choral music are, as you say, woefully lacking.

In my opinion/experience, this is part of a much larger malaise, and involves the lack of serious consideration of singing in schools. A few "top" educationalists decided in the 1970s, or earlier, that it was "wrong to force" children to sing (but it was OK to force them to learn maths and French). Up to a point, the principle is fair, but in educating young people, it is not wrong to encourage and inspire them to do finer things.

Whilst teachers in other schools were treading on glass to avoid any risk of asking their pupils to sing anything remotely resembling folk songs or classical music - indeed anything composed before they were born, I was using every trick under the sun to undermine this (to me) cowardly policy. I even used negative kidology to make them want to sing Purcell or Beethoven:- "I was thinking about a new song I've got here, but it wouldn't be fair on you; it's much too difficult - no, you wouldn't be able to sing it - I'm sorry." The response you can guess, and their minds were concentrated and in the end, they sung such songs magnificently. We were the school with multiple choirs, and many went on to sing in adult choirs. In non-singing secondary schools (which now predominate) those who want to sing often have to pay for singing lessons, and perhaps join local choirs. Others may join community choirs and sing in unison.

Those "educationalists" responsible for this situation send out consultants to brainwash music teachers to their ways of thinking. A few of us stood up to their delusional and short-sighted ideologies, but this meant blackening our name with the extremely gullible county music advisor.

As for actually "listening" to choral music at school. . . not even on the radar.


Grump over. :-(

[Gabriel Jackson]

The joy of CE is that 90% of it is weekly, LIVE, pretty but not aggressively varied, but practised par excellence in almost all cases by YOUNG experts all over the country. What beats me is that one would have thought the BBC would be falling over themselves as Baltic / Scandinavian countries are to showcase young talent, but instead we get largely the established ensembles - eg JEG anywhere and everywhere, The Sixteen, BBC Singers, and choral groups attached to the big London orchestras, and by and large that is more less that.......

I agree that it is regrettable that, as you say, with the exception of the odd concert by the Tallis Scholars or The Sixteen, the only choirs that broadcast regularly are the BBC Singers and those on Choral Evensong. But this, surely, is a reflection of the fact that choral music and choral singing are simply not regarded as being as important as orchestral music, opera, or celebrity pianists? (This may be because the vast number of choral singers in this country are amateur...). Why aren't the likes of David Hill, Peter Dijkstra, Kaspars Putniņš, Donald Nally, Stephen Layton, Māris Sirmais not as feted and speculated about as much as their orchestral counterparts? Because their medium is not thought as important, and their mastery is not noticed.

While I'm not sure that Scandinavian and Baltic broadcasters are falling over themselves to showcase young talent (or not-so-young talent - the very fine Finnish Radio Choir was disbanded some years ago) the fact that choral music is regarded as much more significant in their musical cultures - especially in the Baltic states - is reflected in the boadcast coverage of their choirs. In Latvia, for instance, where I have worked quite a lot, the Radio Choir (no longer supported by Latvian Radio), the State Choir, and Youth Choir Kamēr... (the three best choirs in the country) are heard regularly on radio but are also seen regularly on TV. (For anyone interested, go to www.ltv.lv and search ("meklēt") for "koris" and loads of concerts and news items and interviews can be found. That is because, in Latvia, singing is important. As long as it isn't seen as important in the UK, I doubt we will hear/see any more choral singing than we currently do.

[VodkaDilc]

Those "educationalists" responsible for this situation send out consultants to brainwash music teachers to their ways of thinking. A few of us stood up to their delusional and short-sighted ideologies, but this meant blackening our name with the extremely gullible county music advisor.

As for actually "listening" to choral music at school. . . not even on the radar.

A very wise contribution from Eine Alpensinfonie. I would say, however, that I always found County Music Advisors to be very supportive; they saw those of us in the schools as the experts. (Imagine that these days.) Even more supportive were the HMIs, who I suppose have now been supplanted by OFSTED inspectors. HMIs would come for a chat, look at some lessons (not notes and records), make some supportive comments and then ask what help they could be in putting requests to the Head (extra resources, timetabling and so on.) They were there to help, not judge, and most of the ones I met (probably all the Music specialists over the years) had genuine and successful experience as teachers themselves.

I rarely make contributions here on teaching, so I will now return to retirement. We watched Music's place in education rise throughout the 70s and 80s; what I see now is very sad.

(And, like Eine Alpensinfonie, I did not hesitate to rebel against/ignore the latest 'suggestions'. I don't suppose that could happen today.)

[french frank]

I would like to hear more of and about singing traditions elsewhere in the world, some of which have, after all, informed works by western composers I believe. This was something that Pied Piper was good at doing, and it was a pleasure to hear David Munrow's excitement and interest in finding apparently similar music in widely separated parts of the world. That could(and did) lead neatly to explanations about modes, and consideration of the movement of ancestor tribes.

That would be much more in keeping with how, er, um, 'serious music' has developed over past decades. And, yes, to aeolium's point - not all UK concerts. The EBU could widen the range; and CDs certainly shouldn't be 'despised': many would supply works/composers seldom programmed for concerts.

[ardcarp]

of course, when I guest-presented The Choir, it was ALL about Baltic music

How about taking on the job permanently, Gabriel?

Thanks for the link.

[doversoul1]

I But this, surely, is a reflection of the fact that choral music and choral singing are simply not regarded as being as important as orchestral music, opera, or celebrity pianists?

But by whom (this is a genuine question)?

Isn’t choral music the oldest (or one of) form of serious Western music? How can Radio3 ignore it? If it is seen to be unfashionable, shouldn’t Radio3 make an extra effort to bring it back by offering the listeners more opportunities to hear great works?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But this, surely, is a reflection of the fact that choral music and choral singing are simply not regarded as being as important as orchestral music, opera, or celebrity pianists?

How true. There's a mystique about expensive-looking instruments that attaches itself to the performers themselves. Little value is placed upon singers, unless they are supplemented by a microphone.

The truth is that each human voice is unique and priceless.

[Gabriel Jackson]

But by whom (this is a genuine question)?

By listeners, I would say. And by other musicians.

[french frank]

Isn’t choral music the oldest (or one of) form of serious Western music? How can Radio3 ignore it? If it is seen to be unfashionable, shouldn’t Radio3 make an extra effort to bring it back by offering the listeners more opportunities to hear great works?

This seems to me to be the important part: we've just had a BaL devoted to Mozart's Requiem. When is the full work broadcast now? Is it on Essential Classics?

[ardcarp]

10:30
Sarah features excerpts from the Building a Library recommendation from last Saturday's Record Review
Mozart
Requiem

..obviously not. Too much time spent quipping with Gyles Brandreth I expect.