Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

[Gabriel Jackson]

It's been obvious from this thread that there are rather different singing traditions in different European countries. I would guess that the British one owes more to Christianity than some others have, which means that the rapid decline in religious practice has been more devastating here than it has been elsewhere.

Hasn't the decline in Christian religious observance also been paralleled by a rise in the amount of sacred music being performed? Much of the whole Early Music revival is about performing sacred vocal music that simply wasn't heard 100 years or so ago.

[ardcarp]

...though it should not be forgotten that R.R. Terry (first DoM at Westminster Cathedral) and E.H. Fellowes (an Anglican priest) were probably the principal pioneers in making performing editions of long-neglected Tudor Church Music.

[light_calibre_baritone]

(And as an audience member, I feel very cheated if the words aren't in the programme - and I don't like being palmed off with just a translation, either.)

.

As a performer I find printed texts and translations in concert programmes makes the majority of the audience look down a lot and very rarely look up and engage with the performance/performers; I really enjoy seeing engaged and interested faces when I'm up on stage! Just a thought as this has bugged me for years... On the flip-side people should also know what we're singing about, so really it's all a much of a muchness!

[DracoM]

But as a number of posters have said, the less people learn / know / are familiar with languages esp perhaps Latin, a good deal of the core repertoire is destined to be less and less comfortable for many, and thus more in the audiences will have heads in programmes.

That is of course if they still come to hear stuff sung in foreign languages. More grey heads, fewer young ones.

[Gabriel Jackson]

But as a number of posters have said, the less people learn / know / are familiar with languages esp perhaps Latin, a good deal of the core repertoire is destined to be less and less comfortable for many, and thus more in the audiences will have heads in programmes.

Actually I don't think anyone has said that at all. While fewer people learn Latin now than when I was at school (and it was by no means everyone that did then) choirs are clearly perfectly comfortable singing in Latin still since they do it all the time. In fact, it is quite clear that more foreign languages are sung now than was the case when I was young. As to heads in programmes, however good a choir's diction is, even in English not all the words are clearly audible, especially in polyphonic music.

That is of course if they still come to hear stuff sung in foreign languages. More grey heads, fewer young ones.

What is the evidence that people don't go to concerts if foreign languages are sung?

[DracoM]

As ever, you are right on all counts.

[Old Grumpy]

As a performer I find printed texts and translations in concert programmes makes the majority of the audience look down a lot and very rarely look up and engage with the performance/performers; I really enjoy seeing engaged and interested faces when I'm up on stage! Just a thought as this has bugged me for years... On the flip-side people should also know what we're singing about, so really it's all a much of a muchness!

As a consumer, I do like the text to be in the programme, together with some (but not over technichal) programme notes. This doesn't stop me from looking at the performers from time to time, albeit sometimes with my eyes shut!

OG

[oddoneout]

But as a number of posters have said, the less people learn / know / are familiar with languages esp perhaps Latin, a good deal of the core repertoire is destined to be less and less comfortable for many, and thus more in the audiences will have heads in programmes.

That is of course if they still come to hear stuff sung in foreign languages. More grey heads, fewer young ones.

I don't think there are too many problems with the core repertoire since surely by definition it is more familiar, not least from personal listening to recordings with access to words/translations if wished. After a while the general gist of the mass or passion is likely to stick, even in a foreign language, since the format remains largely the same regardless of composer, and phrases may become recognisable 'out of context'(in other works, particularly latin sacred texts). Something I find interesting when this subject comes up is that latin texts seem to cause fewer negative feelings than modern languages, regardless of understanding or otherwise. Opera 'in foreign' (as my son used to call it) is more problematic in my view, not least because the plots tend to be convoluted so a synopsis is of limited use unless one has a good memory, and however good the performers there will be occasions where it's not obvious from the action on stage alone what's happening.
In terms of coming to hear performances I suspect that composer and/or performer(s) are more important considerations than language.

[DracoM]

Look at audiences for such concerts in UK. Guess their average age. Ask yourself how long will those audiences live? Where are their replacements?
The works may be deathless. but the audiences aren't.

[jean]

The average age of the audiences for 'such concerts' is no different from that of the audience for any concert of music that might be called 'classical'.

[oddoneout]

The average age of the audiences for 'such concerts' is no different from that of the audience for any concert of music that might be called 'classical'.

Quite. The biggest barrier to new and/or younger audiences is 'classical music'. Foreign language comes some way below that and in any case is irrelevant if the first hurdle can't be overcome.

[teamsaint]

Quite. The biggest barrier to new and/or younger audiences is 'classical music'. Foreign language comes some way below that and in any case is irrelevant if the first hurdle can't be overcome.

I was at the Barbican on Wednesday to hear some Messaien, and the audience was by classical music standards a rather young one,I would say.

If I had to offer an opinion, I would say that the biggest barrier to bringing in younger audiences is fear driven , unadventurous concert programming.

[oddoneout]

Apologies for double posting - concentration shot, should be in bed.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Look at audiences for such concerts in UK. Guess their average age. Ask yourself how long will those audiences live? Where are their replacements?
The works may be deathless. but the audiences aren't.

But this has ever been so. When I started going (with my older brother) to concerts when I was twelve, I was by far the youngest member of the audience, and there were a few older teenagers scattered amongst the bald heads and grey hairs. Now, I am the bald head - there are still far more people in their fifties and older attending these events than there are younger people, but I still see the same numbers of teenagers as there ever were: this repertoire attracts many people when they reach this sort of age. From my experience of audiences for "Classical" Music, it is a deathless collection of old(er) people.

And I would second ts observation that younger audiences appear in greater numbers for concerts of Music from the later Twentieth Century+ than they do for "standard" mid-19th Century stuff.

[Richard Barrett]

If I had to offer an opinion, I would say that the biggest barrier to bringing in younger audiences is fear driven , unadventurous concert programming.

I agree completely, also with fg's observation that the average age of concert audiences hasn't changed that much. What has changed is that there's much more pandering to old people's idea of what young people find attractive, which is an undignified and counterproductive business IMO.

And then of course there is the downgrading of both music and foreign languages in the UK education system.