Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

[Tony Halstead]

Sadly, some choral directors simply can't conduct, full stop.

Hmmmm... OK then... In your opinion, which of these 'can't conduct?'

Christophers; Cleobury; Cummings; Gardiner; Layton; Mc Creesh; Neary; O’Donnell

[light_calibre_baritone]

Hmmmm... OK then... In your opinion, which of these 'can't conduct?'

Christophers; Cleobury; Cummings; Gardiner; Layton; Mc Creesh; Neary; O’Donnell

You know full well what response you'll get to that.

You're showing your age with Neary - what a blast from the past.

[ardcarp]

(Definitely not linked to the previous few threads) Strange I should have mentioned Richard Hickox in #220. It would have been his birthday today, R3 reminded us, and can you believe he died 8 years ago?

[DracoM]

In rural areas, involvement in choral singing is at least about logistics, and even more so for the young still involved in schools / colleges maybe car-less. for many, solo singing is more available eg embryonic rock bands and / or solo lessons in classical or indeed both

A local private singing teacher of my acquaintance has sent something like 17 young people to RNCM, Oxbridge etc over the last 20 yrs or so, but interestingly NONE of them sang in the local choral ensemble because to have singing lessons once or twice a week AND attend choral soc practices takes them too much out of school / college work and social activity. Getting out of the dale and to university finds these same young people singing in ensembles there. So far so good.
HOWEVER
the underlying problem /?tragedy? in all this is that at base, the local and scattered schools - one of which is a high-prestige / high-achieving ex-direct grant grammar school and the other a boarding school - take little or no interest in singing either solo or choral soc style work. The private one has what it bills as a 'chapel' choir of some 30 or so.
BUT, at both schools......Musicals?
Ah, well, now that's a totally different matter! Big spend on those.

[jean]

I remember a suggestion that an adult choir I was in should take on some of the cathedral girls after they'd left the cathedral choir and before they'd gone off to University or somewhere.

It never happened, because we were told the whole choir would have had to be CRB checked.

[DracoM]

Which is true, I fear. Btw, it's called DBS now.

[teamsaint]

Which is true, I fear. Btw, it's called DBS now.

...and you can now be in danger of losing your teaching job, or barred from working with children, if you share a house with someone who would fail a DRB...and this can be for something as relatively low level as caution for ABH.

Public awareness of this situation is disastrously low.

[jean]

The Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir with Paul Hillier on Record Review this morning reminds me of discussion earlier in the thread of the preeminenece of Baltic choirs.

I don't think we ever worked out fully the reasons for this.

I remember a wonderful Lithuanian choir at a Baltic choral festival I took part in when I was singing in Poland, but I have no idea how they achieved their results.

[oddoneout]

I remember a suggestion that an adult choir I was in should take on some of the cathedral girls after they'd left the cathedral choir and before they'd gone off to University or somewhere.

It never happened, because we were told the whole choir would have had to be CRB checked.

The choir I belong to faced this a few years ago with a teenager who joined us. However when the small print was examined and advice sought we were given the go-ahead to continue as before since at no point was the 'activity' one that required any one to one and/or unsupervised contact. It was the same reasoning that meant I only needed List 99 clearance as a school governor since I never had any unsupervised or lone contact with the pupils.If I had been involved with mentoring, subject support etc I would have need the enhanced disclosure.We(governors) all had the full works anyway as belt and braces.
I know that regulations have changed, but it would be very sad if those changes have meant that youngsters are unable to access such choral groups - law of unintended consequences, or insufficient/faulty investigation and/or interpretation of the rules?

[Gabriel Jackson]

The Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir with Paul Hillier on Record Review this morning reminds me of discussion earlier in the thread of the preeminenece of Baltic choirs.

I don't think we ever worked out fully the reasons for this.

I remember a wonderful Lithuanian choir at a Baltic choral festival I took part in when I was singing in Poland, but I have no idea how they achieved their results.

Some reasons: singing as part of national identity (this might be slightly manafactured, but still potent); singing is normal, not unusual; greater respect for, and interest in, music among the population at large; better musical education in schools; formal training of conductors; widespread use of singing teachers for both amateur and professional choirs; hard work; influences from the singing traditions of Germany, Russia and Scandinavia; state support for amateur choirs; native composers who create idiomatic, imaginative work that challenges and excites singers. I'm sure I could think of more reasons.

The Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir has had its problems, but new Chief Conductor Kaspars Putniņš is doing a fantastic job.

Galina Grigorjeva is a very good composer. Having curated the premiere recording of her marvellous choral symphony "Svjatki" I am so pleased there is finally a whole disc of her work on an international label.

[ardcarp]

Some reasons: singing as part of national identity (this might be slightly manafactured, but still potent); singing is normal, not unusual; greater respect for, and interest in, music among the population at large; better musical education in schools; formal training of conductors; widespread use of singing teachers for both amateur and professional choirs; hard work; influences from the singing traditions of Germany, Russia and Scandinavia; state support for amateur choirs; native composers who create idiomatic, imaginative work that challenges and excites singers. I'm sure I could think of more reasons.

Wow!...and why can't we have that here?

[mopsus]

My choir has 'apprentices' who are in Y9 (age 15-16) and above. There is no need for the whole choir to be checked for this.

[Cockney Sparrow]

My choir has 'apprentices' who are in Y9 (age 15-16) and above. There is no need for the whole choir to be checked for this.

And the choirs I sing in have designated people responsible for safeguarding (vulnerable people as well as the young). In one of them, I was requested (probably in reality, required) to sign to say I'd read the policy. That's fair enough.

[DracoM]

The choir I belong to faced this a few years ago with a teenager who joined us. However when the small print was examined and advice sought we were given the go-ahead to continue as before since at no point was the 'activity' one that required any one to one and/or unsupervised contact. It was the same reasoning that meant I only needed List 99 clearance as a school governor since I never had any unsupervised or lone contact with the pupils.If I had been involved with mentoring, subject support etc I would have need the enhanced disclosure.We(governors) all had the full works anyway as belt and braces.
I know that regulations have changed, but it would be very sad if those changes have meant that youngsters are unable to access such choral groups - law of unintended consequences, or insufficient/faulty investigation and/or interpretation of the rules?

An aside: under the current safeguarding regs / attitudes / 'initiative', a huge number of youth activities all over the country have been seriously damaged / disintegrated. Ever tried to assess how many men are likely to go into teach in Primary School education? Can mean that between ages of 5-18, a child of a single-parent family could well have contact with very, very few - maybe even no - men in any authority situation at all.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Wow!...and why can't we have that here?

I suppose we, as a country, would have to like music more. Of course there is a downside to the same history that has produced so much that we admire in the singing culture of the Baltics - low self-esteem, anxiety about their vulnerability to Russian aggression, problematic relationships with their minority populations, fairly widespread corruption, very low earnings compared to Western countries...