Choral music and Radio 3's priorities

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  • ardcarp
    Late member
    • Nov 2010
    • 11102

    I wonder if I might just have a ramble about sight-reading? The word 'amateur choirs' encompasses a huge range of standards and abilities. Many small-ish chamber choirs include members who are virtually of a 'professional' standard, except they happen to earn their livings in other ways. [I'm not sure I really like trotting out the words 'professional' and 'amateur' all the time!] In these groups, many members will be good sight-readers, excellent sight-readers even. In such groups, Jean, I have not sensed any diminutiion of SR ability over the years. It is when dealing with, say, a choral society that one notices a marked difference between their general SR ability and that of a reasonable amateur orchestra. Orchestral members tend to know and understand all the nuts and bolts (e.g. time sigs, key sigs, etc, etc) and at a first rehearsal one can be pretty sure of a reasonable run-through. Some choral societies, OTOH, will often need a fair amount of note-bashing...unless we are talking of the works they are familiar with. The ironic thing is, one can often achieve..in the end....a more 'professional' [O gawd] result from an amateur choir than one can from an amateur orchestra. One important thing IMHO, and one which I've always tried to encourage, is that when a choral work with orchestral accomp is being rehearsed, the choir should get used to an 'orchestral' style of conducting, i.e. one with a clear, conventional beat. Some very good choir trainers have wayward directing styles which work brilliantly with their own choirs, but which cause consternation in the (scratch?) orchestral ranks. OTOH, if the 'wayward' choir-trainer, at the dress rehearsal, suddenly starts directing the orchestra in traditional manner, the choir will be all at sea.

    I've rambled too much. I'll get me coat.......

    Comment

    • light_calibre_baritone

      Don't open the can of worms labelled: The Conductor's Beat (or lack of)

      Comment

      • jean
        Late member
        • Nov 2010
        • 7100

        Originally posted by light_calibre_baritone View Post
        Is that an assumption that it's entirely the privately educated that can sight-read?
        I was responding in that post to ahinton, who thought

        Originally posted by ahinton View Post
        ...the question of sight-reading ability which, for most people, in inevitably linked to the nature and extent of music education that they will have received when at school...
        I was saying that any sight-reading ability I possess owes nothing whatever to my (state grammar) school, but (I conceded) might owe something to the (private?) education of those I came into contact with.

        But the main point is it's not that difficult. The mystery is why nobody seems to want to do it any more.

        Your comment that I quoted might also link in with Draco's comments on more experienced musicians helping, mixing or guiding less experienced ones to help increase confidence... I struggle to see this happening regularly; how could it be achieved...
        I commented on that, too; it can only be achieved if the people who could be helped think it worthwhile to accept the help.

        If I had my way, I would put an absolute embargo on choral directors playing chorus parts along with the singers in rehearsal.

        Comment

        • jean
          Late member
          • Nov 2010
          • 7100

          Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
          In such groups, Jean, I have not sensed any diminutiion of SR ability over the years.
          I must be just mixing with the wrong people.

          ... The ironic thing is, one can often achieve..in the end....a more 'professional' [O gawd] result from an amateur choir than one can from an amateur orchestra...
          Not ironic at all, surely? Singng's a lot esier than playing an instrument!

          Comment

          • light_calibre_baritone

            Originally posted by jean View Post
            Not ironic at all, surely? Singng's a lot esier than playing an instrument!
            Presume you mean that everyone has a voice and can therefore sing (in some guise) regardless of level of tuition? Therefore assume you're not suggesting that professional singers have it easier than instrumentalists?

            Comment

            • ardcarp
              Late member
              • Nov 2010
              • 11102

              I am always amused when people ask 'Which is the easiest instrument to play?' There is no answer to that because there will always be an elite few who can play the socks off anyone else whether it be on the violin, the балала́йка or the Andean nose-flute. I guess the same sort of thing applies to singers.

              Comment

              • light_calibre_baritone

                Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                I am always amused when people ask 'Which is the easiest instrument to play?' There is no answer to that because there will always be an elite few who can play the socks off anyone else whether it be on the violin, the balalaika or the Andean nose-flute. I guess the same sort of thing applies to singers.
                It also winds me up when singers aren't included with the instrumentalists!!!!

                Comment

                • Richard Barrett
                  Guest
                  • Jan 2016
                  • 6259

                  Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                  I've rambled too much. I'll get me coat.......
                  No, please put it back on the hook, this is all very interesting to a choir virgin like me. (I've often wondered how orchestras can follow the "beat" given by some choir directors I've seen.)

                  Comment

                  • jean
                    Late member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 7100

                    Originally posted by light_calibre_baritone View Post
                    Presume you mean that everyone has a voice and can therefore sing (in some guise) regardless of level of tuition? Therefore assume you're not suggesting that professional singers have it easier than instrumentalists?
                    No, I'm talkiing about the sort of level I assume ardcarp means. It's why (see earlier in the thread) instrumentalists at least get their expenses while choral singers don't (unless they're tenors).

                    My remarks shouldn't be taken as referring to professional singers at all.

                    Comment

                    • ardcarp
                      Late member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 11102

                      No, please put it back on the hook, this is all very interesting to a choir virgin like me. (I've often wondered how orchestras can follow the "beat" given by some choir directors I've seen.)
                      Well, if you're serious. In Baroque and maybe Classical choral music it is generally not so difficult for a pro-band to latch onto an inexperienced conductor, except when recitative is involved. (Good example: "At the last trumpet...diddle dum diddle dee") I recently sang in a small group where the Brook Street Band (a top Baroque ensemble) was booked to play. They were so good they managed to ignore any silliness from the conductor and we and they just got on with it. However when more complex scores are involved (anything with rapid changes of time-sig, rits, pauses, etc, etc) a clear understanding of what orchestral players need (if only where the first beat in the bar falls) is essential. It's not really until you have played in an orchestra, even if only at a basic level at school, that you can understand what it's like to be glued to a single line of music, count rests, and be in step with everyone else. I've always admired people such as Andrew Davis and the late Richard Hickox who have an amazing ability to understand the chorus and the orchestra in equal measure. At the other extreme, I know for a fact that some top chorus-masters have to prepare their large choirs to be on the ball despite less than sympathetic windmilling from 'top' conductors. No names.

                      Comment

                      • Gabriel Jackson
                        Full Member
                        • May 2011
                        • 686

                        Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                        Some very good choir trainers have wayward directing styles which work brilliantly with their own choirs, but which cause consternation in the (scratch?) orchestral ranks.
                        Sadly, some choral directors simply can't conduct, full stop.

                        Comment

                        • Eine Alpensinfonie
                          Host
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 20576

                          Originally posted by jean View Post

                          Not ironic at all, surely? Singng's a lot easier than playing an instrument!
                          Not really. There's easy and difficult music for both. Atonal music is much easier to play than to sing.

                          Comment

                          • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                            Gone fishin'
                            • Sep 2011
                            • 30163

                            Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                            Not really. There's easy and difficult music for both. Atonal music is much easier to play than to sing.
                            Nonsense

                            Jeremy Hardy performs "Come On, Eileen" live at The New Theatre, Oxford
                            [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                            Comment

                            • Eine Alpensinfonie
                              Host
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 20576

                              Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post


                              I should have added the word "accurately".

                              Comment

                              • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                                Gone fishin'
                                • Sep 2011
                                • 30163

                                Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post


                                I should have added the word "accurately".
                                [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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